new farm pond help

[fishman]

Here's some more information as well.

North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission:
http://216.27.49.98/pg03_Fishing/images/PONDMAN5.PDF

PatrickG raises some interesting points. As for flocculating clay particles, the chemical is common alum (aluminum sulfate) and is fairly economical in my area (TX). You will need sufficient alkalinity levels (>20 ppm) to buffer against pH changes, which may be a problem in your area. If so, liming would be required. Turnkey application of alum in a pond your size should cost less than $750, with liming costing a bit more. This assumes a local source of materials.

It is unlikely you will have a turbidity problem, but if you do, it would be wise to correct it.

 

[patrickg]

Fishman, thanks for stepping up to the plate. I know there is a lot to know that I don't know, especially in aquaculture. I've read that clay or cement pipe (6 inch or larger ID) is good to put in the pond to give fish a place to hide. I read that catfish especially like those to "nest" in. What are the best references that you would recommend to read up on clearing ponds. I have a pond chalenged friend with a red paint pot pond as his only pond (and only one he has room for, south central Oklahoma, bright red clay). I told him about the rye straw that I read about, floculants, and some other ideas but he got wildly different cost estimates from what you mentioned.

Is there a reason that he and I couldn't do the work? The chemistry can't be that difficult can it? I would love to be able to show him a solution that we could implement. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Oh by the way he likes to keep fish in the pond for the grand kids to catch.

Patrick

 

[SmokyMtnMan]

wow....just plain WOW. you know.....i've been using the internet discussions groups, chat rooms, etc for about 4 yrs now and I don't think I've ever received a more informative, well thought out response as yours, Patrick. And you other guys too. I am printing these out. I have visited some other pond building sites, extension service sites, etc. I'm been busy this morning with a guy helping me with a T-shaped fishing pier...app. 40 ft long with 24 ft wings on the end. I have not had much rain here and it seems the grass mixture that they guy doing the hydroseeding has only taken hold in the shady parts, north facing.....nothing on the sunny slopes that face south yet.....and it's been 3 weeks now.
when the rain did come the other day....i've got a few gullies now.....and the pond has caked, desert-like red clay mud.
Should i close the drain cap and let the rain naturally fill some of it up even though it's muddy? or should i leave it open and let some of the muddy, red clay wash through?
i'm not sure what anti-vortex is......but i have a long rod attached to the overflow pipe which opens and closes a lid....similiar to one of those you would see on a submarine...it's heavy cast iron bolted on....rod lifts it up or lets it drop over pipe

my main concern at this time is to do something before filling that might help with keeping it as clear as possible

i know about using Gypsum after the water is in....by taking it out in a boat and spreading it over water.....but is there anything you can do before filling to help?
Patrick, can you re-do your second paragraph in Appalachian Hillbilly talk for me?

 

[wasabi]

TBN is great, eh? If you would, I'd appreciate your sending me, via private e-mail, the name of the guy you hired. Looks to me like he did nice work for you. As we are neighbors, I'd like to get him to look at an area we have that I think is tailor made. Thx!

 

[patrickg]

SmokeyMtnMan, Translate, hmmmm. Lessee, I have been in the Great Smokeys on vacations, watched the car lights of traffic come over the Cumberland Gap and was in "bear jams". We have many alternatives but the top two are: You use a babel fish or I try to translate. Well It has been over 40 years since I was in the Smokeys and there are probably a lot fewer folks living in cabins with dirt floors and gasoline powered Maytags in the yard but here goes...

Clay and other dirt stuff in water tend to settle out over time with the big stuff falling out first. This is like if you threw a hand full of dirt up in the air. The big stuff, rocks and pebbles would fall out right away, then sand, fine dirt then the real fine dust would be last. Stuff that won't disolve in water is like that too, except some clay is a special case. This clay has a charge on it kinda like static electricity. And since like charges repel each other the particles with these charges don't clump together. They are so fine that it might take 100yrs to settle out but something would probably stir them up before that time passed so effectively they don't settle out.

The math stuff isn't absolutely neccessary but if you were a math oriented guy (some are some aren't) it would have made it as clear as, if not mud, red clay in your pond water.

I would hate to be on the hook to advise you regarding filling your pond or waiting for more ground cover to reduce turbidity. I would get a sample of the mud, put some in a gallon jar, fill it up about 7/8 of the way with water and shake the devil out of it. Put it down and wait and see. If it never gets satisfactorily clear in this test the pond probably won't either. The more water you are looking through the darker it will look. This is why I suggest a gallon rather than a 1/2 pint so you won't be fooled. If it settles out real good then you might want to go for it.

This is when fishman is supposed to step in and tell us what the real deal is.

When you drain a sink or the bath tub or whatever and the water tends to swirl around in a spiral as it goes down the drain (clockwise or counter clockwise depending on which side of the equator you are on) that sinking spiral draining pattern is called a vortex. It will occur naturally when a pond overflows via its drain pipe. It will get a lot of water moving around and around in a pond if it drains for a while like during a good rain. This can cause significant errosion problems for the pond's dam, sidewalls, whatever. To prevent thi, an anti-vortex device is attached to the drain pipe on the inside of the pond. It prevents the build up of a large erroding circulation of water. They are quite simple having no moving parts, You don't have to maintain them.

AHA, maybe your pond drain is at or near your ponds bottom? If yes then I don't know what to say about the anti-vortex thingy except ask an expert. In these parts ponds with pipe drains have the drain pipe at the pond end at the highest safe level for water and when the water rises above that it just runs out. This style needs an anti-vortex device very much. "FANCY" ponds might also have a drain with a valve that can pretty much drain the whole pond.

Historical note for folks not familiar with "bear jams." Years ago folks driving through the Smokeys would feed the bears so the bears would learn to approach cars for handouts. On the then narrow and winding roads if a tourist stopped to feed/photograph a bear and especially if someone going the other way stopped also then you had a 100% traffic jam caused by bears, hence, bear jam. In later years got caught in those in Yellowstone while driving an MG-A 1500 roadster with top down. Not fun being mugged by bears in that situation.

Patrick

 

[fishman]

Patrickg is on the right track with the gallon jar deal. That is a common way to determine if problems in existing ponds are due to the clay particles (it won't settle out) or carp/bullheads stirring up the sediment (it will settle out). Of course, if you have both problems, you really are in trouble, and renovation is in order.

Anyway, the link I gave above gives some traditional remedies for muddy water, but this link: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://water3.dnr.state.sc.us/dnr/wild/freshfish/img/fishpond.pdf>http://water3.dnr.state.sc.us/dnr/wild/freshfish/img/fishpond.pdf</A> talks about alum. Their recommendation is 50/lbs/acre foot, which is a good place to start. If you have a very large lake, you would want to get more precise to save cost. Do this by adding progressively larger amounts of alum to 4 jars (carefully measured) and see how much is needed to clear the water. The lowest concentration is what to use. Mix the amount needed to achieve that concentration in water, and apply to the surface of your pond with a gas water pump.

<font color=red> Remember, alkalinity must be above 20 ppm, or the alum will not be adequately buffered, possibly resulting in a fish kill.</font color=red> Please click the link above for info on how to deal with this problem (page 18).

In my area(TX), alum in bulk costs less than $20/50 lbs. Purchased from a national supplier, the cost is more like $70/50 lbs, including shipping. This cost would not be prohibitive for, say a 1.5 acre pond, averaging 4 feet in depth (max materials cost 6 acre/feet * $70 = $420).

As always, I recommend you contact your local state fisheries biologist or private lake management consultant to get information relevant to your area. Not all ponds are created equal.

 

[SmokyMtnMan]

ok, think I've got some help now on the 'muddy' issues. Got a T-shped fishing pier under construction now, 40 feet by 24 feet in size, still not a good hold on grass yet, and some fish attractors in place. What i'm currently doing is trying to get a 'fake' creek carved out above the pond to both fill the pond and for landscaping and aesthetic purposes. This area was overgrown, briars, bittersweet vines, jack pines, cedars, etc....was a thick wildnerness. Here's some pics of the area i'm trying to build a waterfall and streambed for pond.
any ideas on this would be appreciated. I'm still open as to what i'm going to do here. just want to fill pond, then use it as a place to sit, relax by the creek......there are no other creeks or water sources on property. My well for the main house is about 300 feet from this one. I didn't want to affect my house source much if i could help it.
this is head of the pond where water source would be...dug or drilled ...using 'bota 4610 with loader and attachments

 

[SmokyMtnMan]

view of streambed and waterfall area looking toward lake

 

[SmokyMtnMan]

waterfall before rocks placed

 

[SmokyMtnMan]

waterfall and stream for pond...view before rock placement