new gun came in. pics and review

[k0ua]

In the land of firearms instructors there is no such thing as "accidental" discharges, only "negligent" discharges....

I have seen several on the range, and they were all caused by someone putting their finger in the trigger guard and pulling the trigger before they were ready or wanted to. One was when I was RO'ing a shooter through a stage, and she finished the stage, so I gave the command "if you are finished, unload and show clear" So she pulled the trigger right into the wooden barricade about 3 inches in front of the muzzle. After the splinters settled, I said "if you are finished, unload and show clear" She was shaking so badly she could not move, so I cleared the gun. No big deal, bullet went downrange and hit the berm after going thru the barricade, and neither of us had any extra holes. Her husband was not very kind or understanding about it. Part of being an RO ( Range Officer)is making sure the shooter does not break the 180 degree line so bullets go into the berm. I am not saying it cannot happen but I have been present when hundreds of thousands of rounds have been fired, and I have never seen an AD caused by the gun, it has always been the shooter.

James K0UA

 

[donn12]

I cleaned my gun last night and when I was finished I practiced handling the gun. I was surprised at how hard it is to keep my finger out of the trigger area. I am almost 6'2" with big hands and in a normal grip my index finger is barely long enough to rest on the front of the trigger guard. I am going to have to train myself to keep my finger on the top or the bottom of the guard.
I am obsessive about keeping the safety on until it is time to shoot and keeping the gun clear but finger off the trigger is a great tip that I needed!

 

[TripleR]

In the land of firearms instructors there is no such thing as "accidental" discharges, only "negligent" discharges....

Actually our Department Trainers were very clear about differentiating. Our guns were "hot" the whole time on the range just as they were on duty. An "accidental discharge" was acceptable, but a "negligent discharge" resulted in your weapon being taken, your authorization to carry revoke and mandatory completion of the Initial Firearms Certification Training including all classroom work. Any unsafe firearm handling resulted in the same thing.

Negligent Discharges vs. Accidental Discharges Vuurwapen Blog

 

[JB4310]

In the land of firearms instructors there is no such thing as "accidental" discharges, only "negligent" discharges....

That's really splitting hairs, I agree in the true technical sense but not with the practicality. You can pull or bump the trigger by accident.

If we followed that way of thinking, how many automobile collisions would be able to be classified as accidents, it's usually caused by someone doing something wrong. It's not negligent unless it is really egregious.

We can use the term unwanted, or unintentional discharge to cover all forms of the problem, like from Trip's link.

Is this one accidental or negligent?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/880715/

Looks like he was holstering his gun.

I think it is a little negligent leaving the gun on the floor with a bunch of what look like detainees standing there??

Wow, I just watched it again, looks like he shot the guard as well as himself !

JB

 

[edlegault]

"You can pull or bump the trigger by accident." NO NO NO.

Take a safety class with range time... you will learn that your finger ONLY goes on the trigger when you are going to shoot (kill or destroy something) and never before.

A properly functioning firearm will not have accidental discharges. A malfunction usually comes from a firearm which has been abused and/or not maintained properly.

I highly recommend you find an NRA or other qualified instructor for the proper handling and care of firearms.

BTW, I have been at large commercial training facilities that train hundreds of students a day, all day, every day. These facilities check EVERY student's firearm every day for proper function and operation. The only AD/ND problems these places have is the student not keeping their finger outside of the trigger guard until destroying the target. No, the trigger finger does not go around the trigger guard, the trigger finger should lay above the trigger/guard along the slide. It takes only like a couple hundredths of a second to get it in place with some practice.

 

[JB4310]

"You can pull or bump the trigger by accident." NO NO NO.

Take a safety class with range time... you will learn that your finger ONLY goes on the trigger when you are going to shoot (kill or destroy something) and never before.

A properly functioning firearm will not have accidental discharges. A malfunction usually comes from a firearm which has been abused and/or not maintained properly.

I highly recommend you find an NRA or other qualified instructor for the proper handling and care of firearms.

BTW, I have been at large commercial training facilities that train hundreds of students a day, all day, every day. These facilities check EVERY student's firearm every day for proper function and operation. The only AD/ND problems these places have is the student not keeping their finger outside of the trigger guard until destroying the target. No, the trigger finger does not go around the trigger guard, the trigger finger should lay above the trigger/guard along the slide. It takes only like a couple hundredths of a second to get it in place with some practice.

I agree at a range or other place where there are alot of loaded guns being handled, that's the only policy that can help eliminate ADND (sounds like a disorder).

But don't tell me you never touch a trigger outside those parameters, like at home when your handling, testing, cleaning your guns.
I do, I think the more important rule is to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and treat it as if it's loaded, unless you just cleared it. Even then keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction if you need to dry fire/ drop the hammer. As long as the muzzle is pointing in a safe direction, if you did have an ADND it would result in not much more than embarrassment. or some property damage.

Finger slipping onto a trigger could almost happen by uncontrolled/ unintentional reflex, seeing where the muzzle is pointed makes it unlikely to mistake that.

I've never had an incident of ADND in 35 years of owning firearms, had plenty of incidents of fail to fire when I wanted to fire.

JB

 

[edlegault]

"But don't tell me you never touch a trigger outside those parameters, like at home when your handling, testing, cleaning your guns."

If a person is going to own a firearm then he/she MUST get into the correct mindset: ALWAYS treat a firearm as if it is loaded.

My dad verbally beat that into me at age 8 when I got my first BB gun (spring powered). Same when I got an air-powered pellet gun at age 10. Same when I received a .22 single shot rifle at age 12. Had to go to hunters safety class at that point to get hunting license. And so on to more and more firearms.

It is NOT necessary to "touch" the trigger on a firearm to clean it unless the firearm is unloaded and the action is locked open. The only "exception" I can think of is a "cowboy" style single action revolver in which the cylinder does not swing out or remove. In that case I empty cylinders, then block the hammer with a piece of wood, or more likely my weak side thumb, before cleaning the trigger area.

Practice dry firing does include touching the trigger. But, again, treat the firearm as if it is loaded and aim in a known safe direction at something that is an appropriate backstop (bullet stopper).

As an instructor, yes I have had students pull the trigger when they did not intend to. That is NOT accidental, that is negligence! BTW, I always stand behind a student I am working with just for that reason and overtly insist that the firearm is always pointed down range.

I store firearms at my home with some of them loaded, clocked and ready to go (safety on). Some holstered. Some sitting in a safe. Most are unloaded, but I treat them ALL as loaded and cocked. Always. No exceptions. It is mostly "empty" firearms that injure and kill people.

Besides being an instructor I also work sometimes as an armed private security guard. My weapon of choice (if i provide it) is a single action Browning High Power carried loaded, cocked and safety on, and holstered. I MUST keep my finger off the trigger when handling. Practice makes good muscle memory.

I have trained and have drawn from my belt holster, and put away, the same loaded firearms hundreds, if not thousands of times without putting my finger on the trigger until actually having the weapon drawn, locked on target, safety off and ready to destroy the target. Those steps are all conscious efforts that must be practiced until second nature

I am tired of writing about firearms safety. I will not post any more on this subject. BE SAFE. If anyone has any questions about firearms safety or training, please PM me. I highly recommend the NRA series of standardized training.

 

[Car Doc]

Nice pistol donn nice group too!

I was at the entrance of a gun show in Wichita checking in a couple pistols I planned on selling 20 years ago. As you all know they make sure all unloaded and no ammo in the mags etc etc.

And then suddenly from behind the curtains BOOM someone cracks one off somewhere out in the show made us all duck for cover. Later found out it was a 30-06 rifle round and it went up thru the roof luckily...idiots.

Even the local police dept had a ND when deputy was taking down his Glock and didn't clear it first and shot himself thru the left palm lucky the round went into a cabinet near the floor instead of a wall and only hit meat not bone in his hand.

I had a guy reach over me from the back once when I was a teenager and grab a 30-30 lever action rifle from me when I was sitting on the bank by a creek and it went off and nearly blew his head off. It sure damaged both of our ear drums. The dumb azz pulled the gun up and dumb azz me had my hand around the stock and my finger on the trigger. Naturally I grasped the rifle harder when he grabbed it and that released the lever safety and he just fired the rifle using my finger on the trigger.

 

[k0ua]

Naturally I grasped the rifle harder when he grabbed it and that released the lever safety and he just fired the rifle using my finger on the trigger


Wow! I bet that was loud right next to his head:confused2: But lucky he still has a head.

My dad wanted to test fire a rifle (6MM Remington) one day but the sun was low and directly over the range backstop. So he backed up into the house and left the door open to get the sun out of the scope of the rifle. I was cooking some hamburgers in the kitchen and knew what he was going to do but did not think too much about it. When the gun went off, I came off of the floor about 2 feet I jumped so hard. The muzzle of the gun being sorta inside of the house even with door open was so loud I could not believe it.! He fired that one shot, and promised to never do that again. I am surprised that all the windows stayed in their frames.. Man was that loud.!

James K0UA

 

[JB4310]

"But don't tell me you never touch a trigger outside those parameters, like at home when your handling, testing, cleaning your guns."

If a person is going to own a firearm then he/she MUST get into the correct mindset: ALWAYS treat a firearm as if it is loaded.

My dad verbally beat that into me at age 8 when I got my first BB gun (spring powered). Same when I got an air-powered pellet gun at age 10. Same when I received a .22 single shot rifle at age 12. Had to go to hunters safety class at that point to get hunting license. And so on to more and more firearms.

It is NOT necessary to "touch" the trigger on a firearm to clean it unless the firearm is unloaded and the action is locked open. The only "exception" I can think of is a "cowboy" style single action revolver in which the cylinder does not swing out or remove. In that case I empty cylinders, then block the hammer with a piece of wood, or more likely my weak side thumb, before cleaning the trigger area.

Practice dry firing does include touching the trigger. But, again, treat the firearm as if it is loaded and aim in a known safe direction at something that is an appropriate backstop (bullet stopper).

As an instructor, yes I have had students pull the trigger when they did not intend to. That is NOT accidental, that is negligence! BTW, I always stand behind a student I am working with just for that reason and overtly insist that the firearm is always pointed down range.

I store firearms at my home with some of them loaded, clocked and ready to go (safety on). Some holstered. Some sitting in a safe. Most are unloaded, but I treat them ALL as loaded and cocked. Always. No exceptions. It is mostly "empty" firearms that injure and kill people.

Besides being an instructor I also work sometimes as an armed private security guard. My weapon of choice (if i provide it) is a single action Browning High Power carried loaded, cocked and safety on, and holstered. I MUST keep my finger off the trigger when handling. Practice makes good muscle memory.

I have trained and have drawn from my belt holster, and put away, the same loaded firearms hundreds, if not thousands of times without putting my finger on the trigger until actually having the weapon drawn, locked on target, safety off and ready to destroy the target. Those steps are all conscious efforts that must be practiced until second nature

I am tired of writing about firearms safety. I will not post any more on this subject. BE SAFE. If anyone has any questions about firearms safety or training, please PM me. I highly recommend the NRA series of standardized training.

I'm not disagreeing with any of your good points on safety.
I will just ask what the proper procedure is, if you have to hold someone at gunpoint, finger on the trigger or not? I don't know what the correct textbook answer is. Also I wonder what LE is taught under that scenario.

Nice pistol donn nice group too!

I was at the entrance of a gun show in Wichita checking in a couple pistols I planned on selling 20 years ago. As you all know they make sure all unloaded and no ammo in the mags etc etc.

And then suddenly from behind the curtains BOOM someone cracks one off somewhere out in the show made us all duck for cover. Later found out it was a 30-06 rifle round and it went up thru the roof luckily...idiots.

Even the local police dept had a ND when deputy was taking down his Glock and didn't clear it first and shot himself thru the left palm lucky the round went into a cabinet near the floor instead of a wall and only hit meat not bone in his hand.

That is a BIG boom for inside, no hearing protection

I had one incident that I'm still not sure what happened, I was shooting a cheap bolt action shotgun when I was a teenager, when all of a sudden my ears were ringing with temporary lose of hearing and a strong concussion to my head.

The gun didn't blow up or anything, the only thing I can think of now is the bolt was not in full battery and blew open and much of the energy came out the rear.

JB