New Kubota Factory

[Grateful11]

Merry Christmas to you also. JESUS, THE REASON FOR THE SEASON!!
Read your entire post and applaud it but I see nothing in it that supports a Union as having anything to do with the quality of work. Looks to me like any good employer with some good employees and I don't see where the Union had anything to do with the quality output.
If 25 people graduate from HS and all go to work in the same community. Say one to a Union Assembly Company and all the others to a Non Union Assembly Company. All 25 work a 40 hour week putting a part on an assembly moving by them on a moving line. One (the Union Worker) gets paid $35 per hour plus "benefits" and the other 24 earn $9.27 per hour and a few benefits. Now which of these workers can buy a boat and a new car and a more expensive house and all of them having the same education and work experience and work output? Now, will the $35 an hour employee plus "benefits" ask all his neighbors to support him and only buy products that his company makes or even to only buy products assembled at a Union Shop?
Now if I'm one of the $9.27 an hour workers that didn't have the "pull" or luck to get a job that pays almost 5 times as much as I make for basically the same work.......... no, I'm going to buy the item that I can afford like MOST of my neighbors that work for a more normal local rate of pay. Am I going to feel "sorry" for my $35 an hour plus benefits neighbor when his company shuts down????
The cost of living is less in different locations. I live in an area with a low cost of living. Many retired ex Union workers move here after they retire and their retirement income puts them up in the more high priced housing neighborhoods and where they make about 4 to 5 times as much during their retirement age as most of the other retired individuals that live in the area as well as more than most skilled currently workers in the area. Many are complaining about having to pay part of their insurance now while their neighbors are covered under Medicare which "ain't" great.
Most are nice people but due to some lucky breaks are living much better than most of their neighbors. Many took their pot of gold and split Detroit and Cincinnati and moved further south where the living is easy (and cheaper).

I was just giving an example of my work experience in a Unionized shop.

I will say this the, our Grand Lodge has the final say so on new hires and I have actually seen them deny potential employees and I've also seen they tell the employer that some could be hired as Apprentices but they didn't meet the qualifications of a Journeyman. So hence they do have some direct connection as to what they feel a person is capable of doing.

 

[rkeith]

Sorry but I'd have sit and read over his Contract before I believe that one. I know that Unions generally encourage their members to buy American made products but with IAM we've never been told we could not buy a foreign anything.

May have been "encouragement". I never saw anything in writing. It just shocked me. Both he and his wife drive GM vehicles. Could be a chapter thing or union thing. I don't know. I've never been in a union.

 

[bunchgrass]

May have been "encouragement". I never saw anything in writing. It just shocked me. Both he and his wife drive GM vehicles. Could be a chapter thing or union thing. I don't know. I've never been in a union.

Or could be a corporate thing that was a "concession" to management by the union. Remember, those guys with the big offices benefit from increased sales at LEAST as much as the union worker does.

While the RR union scenario presented may have existed, one needs to look at how and what unions did for the average American worker. People were beaten and killed during strikes for increased wages and decent working conditions. While things haven't descended to a similar point yet, the discrepancy in wages of working class and management are headed that direction.

 

[buck12]

I see buck12 is from NW Mississippi. That is near where Toyota is putting in a new BIG plant. There may be some jobs opening up for factory workers on an assembly line.

One could substitute "college" for "high school" in buck12's writing and it would be twice as true.

There are 7 children in ours and my wife's brother's family, (age range is 22 to 34). One has yet to graduate from college. The rest graduated, worked for a bit and all are getting advanced degrees, (some while still working and all on their own dime) because they found a simple bachelors degree wasn't good enough for a really good wage.

When I entered the work force part-time in 1966 in rural Vermont it was not uncommon to have 8th graders NOT go to high school, but to enter the workforce for the jobs which did not require more than basic math and literature skills. There were jobs like "stablehand" to shovel horse manure.

Now it seems 2 years of college are required to shovel horse manure. And the jobs is "Equine Sanitation Engineer".

It's still horse manure.

We have, in this country, fostered the idea that everyone can be GREAT at their job. Anyone can become President. College dropouts can become billionaires.
That is a truly inspiring concept. However there doesn't seem to be the emphasis on everyone being GOOD at their job first.

We've got to face the facts that not ALL the children will be above average. That some children will be left behind, simply because they don't have the native genetic intelligence which can be developed.

And on another matter someone commented on all the money being "wasted" on teachers.

In my neck of the woods it's the administrators that are costing the big bucks. The overhead of administrators and staff that DON'T teach and CAN'T teach has threatened to sink the system.

The new Toyota plant is less than two hours from me. I am thankful to have the jobs in the area. We also have many other plants opening in this neck of the woods. Each supports what I said unskilled assembly type jobs don't pay much. Now each of these plants have what I would call good paying jobs that require skills such as maintenance techs, tool and die, etc.

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

Or could be a corporate thing that was a "concession" to management by the union. Remember, those guys with the big offices benefit from increased sales at LEAST as much as the union worker does.

While the RR union scenario presented may have existed, one needs to look at how and what unions did for the average American worker. People were beaten and killed during strikes for increased wages and decent working conditions. While things haven't descended to a similar point yet, the discrepancy in wages of working class and management are headed that direction.

I agree. My Grandfather was the Union Steward on the L&N RR until he died after being ran over by the train he was working on. Took several years of Attorneys working to get my Grandmother (had 12 kids) any income, word from the family is no assistance from the Union. My Dad was a Boilermaker Helper on the L&N RR until he retired after 30+ years in around 1950. He crawled up into the coal burning boilers and cleaned the slag out. My mothers RR retirement was less than people who never worked draw from SSI.
But I know without the Unions my family would have been like conscripted workers as coal miners were in Eastern Ky. I applaud Unions in the early 1920s and 30s. Just think they went to far and have damaged the Country. Also one (me) has to look at the lavish life styles and Incredable Salaries/Benefits of National Union Leadership that are riding on the backs of the American salaried worker.
I won't comment on the Socialistic/Communistic comment about the discrepancy in wages of working class and management. Like everyone should get the same pay.

 

[300UGUY]

The new Toyota plant is less than two hours from me. I am thankful to have the jobs in the area. We also have many other plants opening in this neck of the woods. Each supports what I said unskilled assembly type jobs don't pay much. Now each of these plants have what I would call good paying jobs that require skills such as maintenance techs, tool and die, etc.

Things have changed over time. At one time, here in Michigan, factory jobs were easy to get and not very lucrative. Back in the early 60's, my dad was a journeyman tool & diemaker, and he made less than 5K working for GM. With 4 kids at home, that wasn't much. I have a neighbor that worked for GM as a laborer in the late 50's. He quit GM to work for a dairy farmer because the farmer paid $2 per hour vs. $1 at GM!! Later wages got better, but even into the 70's, turnover was high, because there were better options for folks. I know that in 73, when I graduated from HS, all the companies had multiple full page ads in the 2 detroit papers. After about 75, hiring got thin, and after about 1980, it just about stopped. I hired into GM in 1979, and for most of the next 30 years, I was one of the youngest people in the plant. I was 50+ years old, and some referred to me as the "kid". At some point in the last couple of years, I realized that all my managers were young enough to be my son, and most of my coworkers had grandkids older than their supervisors.

BTW, if your boss tells you that you need to be more "competitive" he's telling you that you make too much money!!

 

[300UGUY]

I agree. My Grandfather was the Union Steward on the L&N RR until he died after being ran over by the train he was working on. Took several years of Attorneys working to get my Grandmother (had 12 kids) any income, word from the family is no assistance from the Union. My Dad was a Boilermaker Helper on the L&N RR until he retired after 30+ years in around 1950. He crawled up into the coal burning boilers and cleaned the slag out. My mothers RR retirement was less than people who never worked draw from SSI.
But I know without the Unions my family would have been like conscripted workers as coal miners were in Eastern Ky. I applaud Unions in the early 1920s and 30s. Just think they went to far and have damaged the Country. Also one (me) has to look at the lavish life styles and Incredable Salaries/Benefits of National Union Leadership that are riding on the backs of the American salaried worker.
I won't comment on the Socialistic/Communistic comment about the discrepancy in wages of working class and management. Like everyone should get the same pay.

My grandfather grew up in a mining town in the UP. Workers got paid very little, and in company script. Company housing also, so if you got fired or layed off, you lost your home also.

 

[bunchgrass]

I won't comment on the Socialistic/Communistic comment about the discrepancy in wages of working class and management. Like everyone should get the same pay.

Not the same pay but equitable pay. Have you seen the reports on how many companies are cutting worker bennies or even salaries saying they can't afford to pay for them while they're also paying out these huge sums for CEO/CFO's and others who have huge huge compensation/retirement packages. One report showed that just the money going into the CEO's retirement package could have funded the rest of the employees benefits package. Guess who took the hit? You bet.

Also, recent survey asked what people thought the average CEO of a Fortune 500 (or 100) company made annually. Most guessed around 500,000 to 750,000. Answer - more like 14 million or more. Sorry but Jesus shouldn't even make 14 million/yr. - miracles and all included.

Companies used to plow some profits back into the company itself but not so much anymore. It's being taken off as compensation for the top dogs.

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

I don't do sports. Never cared much for them. Played some up thru teen years but not a big part of my life. I do see where Colleges pay coaches into the Millions as well as Pro teams do also. Pro teams pay players also millions. Good thing they aren't counting on me for their salary. Since it doesn't cost me anything I don't really care other than for the message it sends as to the value of a sports star (movie star) vs a working man, a President of a Country, a Country Teacher. I've also heard that at some Colleges that the Sports brings in more money thru Broadcasting rights and door admissions than they cost but I still think the message that the College President gets paid 1/20th or less than the Coach and tuitions are going up every year. I don't believe everyone is entitled to a free College Education but I do believe an affordable one should be available. Let me decide and I'd shift alot of that sports money over to the classes in equipment and maybe lower tuition a bit.
Any way, back to the Pro Sports thing. Players get Millions to play ball!!! Coaches get millions to coach ball. But should the owners who put up millions and risk the loss of their money (It happens) get the millions? Millions do come in some times soooooooooo who should get most of it, financial backers (owners) or players? What about if the income isn't enough to cover the out go, should the players not get paid or give their money back?
OK, this get us to the decision of are we/you/me more Socialist/Communist or Democratic. Divide the income and risk amongst all or reward/penalize the risk taker?
I want to feed the poor. Was raised that way and do believe in it but I also believe everyone should do some form of work for their daily bread. No exclusions (aged, disabled, etc) everyone. I believe working and being productive is necessary for good mental health and self esteem.
I worked for 27 1/2 years helping people with Disabilities continue or go to work. Believed in my job that all individuals should do some form of work based on their abilities.
I'm done.

 

[lilranch2001]

The only time ive ever heard of a union dictating what car you can drive was the UAW. I cant remember which automaker, but if you drove a different manufacturer's vehicle you had to park in the FAR lot. If you drove the same brand as your employer, you got to park close.

It wasnt that you couldnt buy a different brand, but you suffered for the privilege

That is GM, or at least that is how it is in the Ft Wayne plant

 

[300UGUY]

I don't do sports. Never cared much for them. Played some up thru teen years but not a big part of my life. I do see where Colleges pay coaches into the Millions as well as Pro teams do also. Pro teams pay players also millions. Good thing they aren't counting on me for their salary. Since it doesn't cost me anything I don't really care other than for the message it sends as to the value of a sports star (movie star) vs a working man, a President of a Country, a Country Teacher. I've also heard that at some Colleges that the Sports brings in more money thru Broadcasting rights and door admissions than they cost but I still think the message that the College President gets paid 1/20th or less than the Coach and tuitions are going up every year. I don't believe everyone is entitled to a free College Education but I do believe an affordable one should be available. Let me decide and I'd shift alot of that sports money over to the classes in equipment and maybe lower tuition a bit.
Any way, back to the Pro Sports thing. Players get Millions to play ball!!! Coaches get millions to coach ball. But should the owners who put up millions and risk the loss of their money (It happens) get the millions? Millions do come in some times soooooooooo who should get most of it, financial backers (owners) or players? What about if the income isn't enough to cover the out go, should the players not get paid or give their money back?
OK, this get us to the decision of are we/you/me more Socialist/Communist or Democratic. Divide the income and risk amongst all or reward/penalize the risk taker?
I want to feed the poor. Was raised that way and do believe in it but I also believe everyone should do some form of work for their daily bread. No exclusions (aged, disabled, etc) everyone. I believe working and being productive is necessary for good mental health and self esteem.
I worked for 27 1/2 years helping people with Disabilities continue or go to work. Believed in my job that all individuals should do some form of work based on their abilities.
I'm done.

I don't really care how much some pro athlete gets paid. I really don't like the idea of publically funded stadiums for them to play in.

 

[300UGUY]

That is GM, or at least that is how it is in the Ft Wayne plant

Legally, there is no way the union or the company can require you to buy or drive their products. They can give discounts and preferred parking. At my old plant, we made Cadillac Engines. If you bought a Cadillac, you could park right next to the plant. But in the last few years, they did away with that, and sustituted a "management only" lot. That management group did not include supervisors, only those with company cars.

 

[bunchgrass]

"OK, this get us to the decision of are we/you/me more Socialist/Communist or Democratic. Divide the income and risk amongst all or reward/penalize the risk taker?"

Which option is democratic, which is socialist and which is communist?

Interestingly, at least in professional FB, salary caps haven't done what they were proposed to do - stop the outrageous salaries. Instead, you have a few players on any given team using up the majority of the cap while everyone else gets league minimum. Example - the old Dallas Cowboys of the 90's - Michael Irwin, Troy Aikman and Emmit Smith received say 40 million of the 50 million in the pool. The other 10 million is split amongst the other 50 players - most get minimum, (back then it was $350,000/yr).

 

[5030]

I can understand why UAW employees would want to drive a car assembled by their respective employer.

Most of the ones I see at auto plants are... Either obese, or too lazy to park anwhere else than right at the door....

and, parking by the door insures that at lunch, they can get out quickly and have the maximum time to consume a beer or smoke a joint before going back in, to 'work'......:laughing:

I laugh but fact is, it's the norm, not an exception.

 

[Grateful11]

I want to feed the poor. Was raised that way and do believe in it but I also believe everyone should do some form of work for their daily bread. No exclusions (aged, disabled, etc) everyone. I believe working and being productive is necessary for good mental health and self esteem.
I worked for 27 1/2 years helping people with Disabilities continue or go to work. Believed in my job that all individuals should do some form of work based on their abilities.
I'm done.

So exactly how would something like this work? You've even mentioned the aged so is someone that's say 99 still be working a public job or do mean work around the house or what? I'm having a hard time with this being thrown into this thread. My wife's Grandmother lived to be 99, lost her husband at about age 38 raised 4 kids, kept an 85 acre farm going until a son took over but she remained active with the farm until way up in her years, fell and broke her hip in her mid 80s, one of her children immediately wanted to throw her into a rest home but my wife (her granddaughter) and her sister said no way and brought her back to the farm where they lived in what you might call an extended family situation, 3 generations living under the same roof, they helped her get back her feet and she used a walker to get around the house, fixed breakfast every morning until her death on the edge of her bed at age 99. Now back to this work for the disabled, aged, etc. Where do we draw the line on this, are you saying that a woman that was 99 years old that fell a lot, even with her walker, should have still been working a public job or are you talking work around the house but no monetary gain? I mean was she suppose go to work down road here at the Sheltered Workshop or be a Greeter at WalMart or what? I'm having a hard believing that this is being injected into this thread. What I'm trying to say is where is the line drawn, should my friends daughter that died at age 17, wheelchair bound, couldn't talk, never able to walk, basically no motor skills, basically because she was dropped by someone at birth immediately after delivery. If she had lived longer should she also be excepted to be a productive part of society when she was incapable of doing even a simple task? Like I think said earlier I'm trying to stay out this but this has really struck a chord with me and I'm sure at least a few others too.

I'll put this way, I hope I'm out here this time and this thread is locked down before too long because it has totally "jumped the shark" and at this point basically doesn't belong in this forum, no meaningful good can come out of it at this point other listening to people's own personal agendas and vendettas. There's going to be lasting bad feelings over this thread and I'm asking that it be moved or locked down. It's threads like this that are allowed to go on and on when it should have already been halted because it will, IMHO, drive away good meaningful members with lots of knowledge on the topics that are started and stay on track.

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

So exactly how would something like this work? You've even mentioned the aged so is someone that's say 99 still be working a public job or do mean work around the house or what? I'm having a hard time with this being thrown into this thread. My wife's Grandmother lived to be 99, lost her husband at about age 38 raised 4 kids, kept an 85 acre farm going until a son took over but she remained active with the farm until way up in her years, fell and broke her hip in her mid 80s, one of her children immediately wanted to throw her into a rest home but my wife (her granddaughter) and her sister said no way and brought her back to the farm where they lived in what you might call an extended family situation, 3 generations living under the same roof, they helped her get back her feet and she used a walker to get around the house, fixed breakfast every morning until her death on the edge of her bed at age 99. Now back to this work for the disabled, aged, etc. Where do we draw the line on this, are you saying that a woman that was 99 years old that fell a lot, even with her walker, should have still been working a public job or are you talking work around the house but no monetary gain? I mean was she suppose go to work down road here at the Sheltered Workshop or be a Greeter at WalMart or what? I'm having a hard believing that this is being injected into this thread. What I'm trying to say is where is the line drawn, should my friends daughter that died at age 17, wheelchair bound, couldn't talk, never able to walk, basically no motor skills, basically because she was dropped by someone at birth immediately after delivery. If she had lived longer should she also be excepted to be a productive part of society when she was incapable of doing even a simple task? Like I think said earlier I'm trying to stay out this but this has really struck a chord with me and I'm sure at least a few others too.

I'll put this way, I hope I'm out here this time and this thread is locked down before too long because it has totally "jumped the shark" and at this point basically doesn't belong in this forum, no meaningful good can come out of it at this point other listening to people's own personal agendas and vendettas. There's going to be lasting bad feelings over this thread and I'm asking that it be moved or locked down. It's threads like this that are allowed to go on and on when it should have already been halted because it will, IMHO, drive away good meaningful members with lots of knowledge on the topics that are started and stay on track.

You know better than to say you believe I'm talking about the most severest of severe disabled and the infirm aged. That's, well, I'll not say what that is in consideration of your feelings.
I have seen both of those groups working and being productive by the way. My first month on the job while attending some Graduate Training at the Woodrow Wilson Rehab Center in Va I saw a man paralized from the neck down using a mouth stick to type on a computer keyboard. I couldn't believe it because I didn't understand the value of allowing someone to feel useful. I started to quit the job. I felt so sorry for the man but he wanted to be there.
I think working, being productive, is a good thing, not something to be ashamed of. No one should be denied the opportunity to be productive whether paid or maintaining the house hold. I believe you missed the point I was trying to make either thru my lack of verbal/writing skills or maybe it was you.
Great thing about TBN is one can pass right by any thread they don't want to read. Sure most people are no longer reading this one. But some are drawn to these threads like moths to a light/fire. I say delete it or let it run. Guess I don't get to decide and that's OK with me. Not my call. I'm not seeing that this particular thread is keeping other threads from being added, commented on and running. Not sure it's damaging TBN as you seem to think.

 

[grsthegreat]

I can understand why UAW employees would want to drive a car assembled by their respective employer.

Most of the ones I see at auto plants are... Either obese, or too lazy to park anwhere else than right at the door....

and, parking by the door insures that at lunch, they can get out quickly and have the maximum time to consume a beer or smoke a joint before going back in, to 'work'......:laughing:

I laugh but fact is, it's the norm, not an exception.

hmm,, there you go again... just maligned an entire workforce with one statement. nothing new there

 

[5030]

hmm,, there you go again... just maligned an entire workforce with one statement. nothing new there

They aren't all bad but a lot are. I've witnessed that close up and personal at break time at the Jeep Plant on Stickney Avenue in Toledo. Mad dash to the car to toss downa brew and smoke up the interior, a telltale sign is closed windows in the summer.......

Tell us, how many auto plants in Idaho? At least unionized ones.....:laughing:

Are potato pickers unionized???:laughing:

 

[300UGUY]

They aren't all bad but a lot are. I've witnessed that close up and personal at break time at the Jeep Plant on Stickney Avenue in Toledo. Mad dash to the car to toss downa brew and smoke up the interior, a telltale sign is closed windows in the summer.......

Tell us, how many auto plants in Idaho? At least unionized ones.....:laughing:

Are potato pickers unionized???:laughing:

After working 30+ years in various auto plants, I will say that that behavior is not the norm. And it isn't unique to union facilities. No employer can control employee behavior 100%. Also I'd say that the newer employees are less likely to engage in this kinda thing - they didn't have drug testing back in the 70's & 80's. Anybody hiring in now has to pass a chemical screen based on hair analysis. I've been told it can detect substance abuse up to a year past.

 

[Grateful11]

John I'm not even going read more than 2 sentences of your thread because here's what you said:

"No exclusions (aged, disabled, etc) everyone."

Make yourself clear and give us exclusions the first time, next time. Don't make broad statements if that's not what you wanted to say.

Edit: Sorry guys I'm letting personal feelings get to me and like I said I'm sorry.

I buried my son that had Muscular Dystrophy this past Summer and I can't stand by and read something like read earlier. I know several people that cannot hold a public job due to their disabilities. My son never wanted to labeled as disabled, never got money for his disability except for a small amount from Vocational Rehab. to help pay for his college education. He was already working in the college IT Dept., had one more year of college to go and was well on his way to becoming a productive part of society. He worked a full 8 hour shift the Friday before he was struck down by heart failure. I had many people to try and talk us into putting him on SSI and try to qualify him for Medicaid once he became an adult, I've always made enough money to take care of him and we wanted nothing to do with it.