Tractor News New Kubota M7 Series

[MHarryE]

I'm not sure have this right. Does the engine automatically run itself faster in RPM's order to burn off the soot?

My higher horsepower AG tractor works differently than lower power tractors. All my auto regenerations are when working so speed is not an issue. If, however, I slow the engine down on end rows the engine did slow below the book. 1500 or 1600 rpm minimum. Reading the manual, this will happen if the DPF temperatures are right but if the DPF cools too much it will raise the idle speed or stop regenerating in the middle of the regeneration cycle. It can get a little complicated. I expect there will be major modifications as years pass and customer preferences create a trend. Can you imagine Green owners switching colors because John Deere introduced a poor product? The sun will rise in the west before that happens.

 

[MHarryE]

Thanks MHarryE! I hadn't thought about the fuel control system - they are definitely improved. The 1466 had a Bosch pump on it but it mechanical and didn't have the multiple shot capability like the new ones do. I would also bet the new injectors create much improved atomization which helps in a lot of ways. Your comment about the last pulse being in the regeneration cycle does seem a little funny though - dumping raw fuel in the exhaust really - doesn't seem like it would clean up the exhaust?

The new injectors are so highly tuned their output is measured at the factory and coded. When replacing an injector this code needs to be read by the computer to fine tune the fuel injection. I read in my Workshop Manual the injectors have a bar code that is read by a computer input device. At Caterpillar every new injector came with a CD that had these parameters. A mechanic needed to have the CD in his computer and programmed the engine computer using Caterpillar Electronic Technician. During operation things wear so the injector output changes. The engine computer is programmed to periodically run an injector test where the parameters to each injector are changed and sensors monitor engine response. From this information the computer signal to the injector is modified to bring it back to original precision. Far from the old days. I chop hay for my brother in law. We run equivalent choppers but I use my Kubota M135GX and he uses his International 1486. He was offended when his grandson drew pictures on Christmas cards of us chopping - my brother in laws with a huge stream of black smoke streaming from the exhaust and mine with a light whisp from the exhaust go indicate its running. However my Kubota does have a major defect that showed up this winter and its emissions related. Next week I may be talking trade with my dealer on a New Holland T6 series which he also sells unless Kubota promises a fix for my problem.

 

[sd455dan]

Wow, I didnt know that new C8.9 was an FPT. I'm a huge fan of that engine and have been following it closely. I grew up at the beach on large sportfish and pleasure boats, amazing is an understatement when referring to the powerplants of boats.

I have to agree about Fiat having some insight into the tech that goes into fuel efficient diesels


don't know if this has been mentioned-

But Fiat was an innovative researcher in ecu controlled High Pressure Common Rail
and had they not sold out to Bosch they would be making a lot of money on the use of this tech instead of Bosch?!!?..
At the time it seems Fiat needed the money and Bosch had it- and the ability to refine and mass produce it.

 

[ShowroomShine]

We run equivalent choppers but I use my Kubota M135GX and he uses his International 1486.

So the big question is, how do these tractors compare performance wise? I am of the thought that older horsepower seems more "muscular" in the respect that tractors back in the day could do more with less horsepower (may be weight, gearing, torque or a combination of all).

 

[Grateful11]

However my Kubota does have a major defect that showed up this winter and its emissions related. Next week I may be talking trade with my dealer on a New Holland T6 series which he also sells unless Kubota promises a fix for my problem.

Care to clue us in on the major defect? I know someone that has been looking at the M135GX.

On the NH T6 note, the dealer near us has sold 4 T6's recently, he just delivered a T6 175 last week.

 

[MHarryE]

Care to clue us in on the major defect? I know someone that has been looking at the M135GX. On the NH T6 note, the dealer near us has sold 4 T6's recently, he just delivered a T6 175 last week.

If you search the thread on M5200 engine problem, you will find a whole thread on Kubota tractor winter problems. My tractor was used only in warm weather for the first 1 1/2 years. We have a John Deere 6230 for feeding livestock and a L5740 for clearing snow. This winter, however, the M135GX went to the dealer to get the transmission computer tweaked because it shifted extremely rough compared to our 2 Deeres and 1 New Holland with similar power shift transmissions. This involved a lot of moves in and out of the dealer's shop, very good for soaking up moisture by running out in the snow and bring it in for work in a warm shop. Anyway when they called me to come check it out to see if the computer was fixed to my satisfaction, the problem reared its ugly head. The mechanic drove it first to show me how the shifting had been changed, then I took over to try it myself. It took only a few minutes of my driving when it started smoking, lost power, warning lights started flashing, and I shut it down. I started it again briefly to raise the loader so we could get access and all the problems were there along with the low oil pressure light. I shut it down as quickly as the loader was raised and we blocked it, opened the hood. Smoke was coming from the turbo area but we didn't see any other apparent problem. I watched the engine closely while the mechanic again started the engine. If the picture attaches properly you might see that oil was gushing down the side of the engine from the turbo area. The mechanic and I concluded turbo seal failure and he replaced the turbo and the DPF which would not clean up being oil soaked. They also needed to replace the transmission computer to fix my shifting problem. I could not understand why the turbo would fail under extremely light load when it had been working extremely well right up to the end of our season. Then the thread turned up from the person having the smaller M series problem and a bell started to ring in my mind. Next a person with a L6060 chimed in with a similar problem. Their problem turned out to be the separator element of their oil separator froze up. Exhaust blow by is filtered through this separator before sending the cleaned blow by into the turbo inlet to be recycled through the engine (like an EGR on a car) while the oil flows back into the oil pan. In the case of a frozen element, apparently the blow by is blocked from its path into the turbo so it goes right back into the crankcase boosting the crankcase pressure until something gives. In my case apparently it was the seals on the turbo. I have heard some horror stories through the grapevine about total engine failures when this happens because the pressure can push hot oil through the intake system and oil is another fuel. Combustion with no control. The M5200 (or is it MX5200) thread speaks of a heater Kubota has available for Canadian versions to solve the problem but our weather in the Arrowhead of Minnesota is as cold as any farming region of Canada (it was -35 last Thursday morning - in March!). This week we have a complete reversal and temperatures actually reached into the +50s and I would be using the M but I am cleaning up winter debris with my L instead waiting for Kubota to give me assurance I won't blow up again.

 

[Grateful11]

Wow that does not sound good. I'm glad it happened at the Kubota dealership. Actually I feel Kubota should have sent in some of their people to look over your particular tractor right then and there.

I'm not sure this a Kubota only problem. A friend of mine has a JD 5115M, full Tier 4. He told me about month or so ago he had a turbo failure, the service dept. claimed it failed because a clamp on the one of the hoses going to the turbo had come loose. I believe for the most part described what you described, smoke, loss of power and oil running down the side of the engine. Only thing is it doesn't get anywhere near as cold here as where some of you guys are at and I'm not sure how cold it was when his blew but I'll ask him.

I've actually been keeping up with the MX5200 thread, I just didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize that yours had basically done the same thing. I've read so much stuff trying to help my son decide which tractor to get recently it's all kind of blended together.

 

[rScotty]

Wow that does not sound good. I'm glad it happened at the Kubota dealership. Actually I feel Kubota should have sent in some of their people to look over your particular tractor right then and there.

I'm not sure this a Kubota only problem. A friend of mine has a JD 5115M, full Tier 4. He told me about month or so ago he had a turbo failure, the service dept. claimed it failed because a clamp on the one of the hoses going to the turbo had come loose. I believe for the most part described what you described, smoke, loss of power and oil running down the side of the engine. Only thing is it doesn't get anywhere near as cold here as where some of you guys are at and I'm not sure how cold it was when his blew but I'll ask him.

I've actually been keeping up with the MX5200 thread, I just didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize that yours had basically done the same thing. I've read so much stuff trying to help my son decide which tractor to get recently it's all kind of blended together.

I'm also following this thread with great interest. Here we have a M59 TLB - it's also tier IV interim and as far as I can tell from the parts books and specs the M59 shares the same engine and emissions equipment as the MX5100 tier IV interim. We haven't had a problem, and often use the machine in cold weather at low rpm moving snow. So I think you made the right decision on the 5100.

Not sure how this will play out with the various other makes of tractor....but they do seem to share some of the same symptoms. The good news being that it is seems to be a failure of a peripheral system and not an intermal design defect.

It's a good chance for the manufacturers to show us how attentive they can be at retro-fitting their machines.
rScotty

 

[MHarryE]

Here is a picture of the oil separator on my tractor taken when the hood was removed. The oil separator is the black plastic part in the middle of the valve cover. There are two lines you can see. The first hose is from the valve cover area routing blow by to the separator. The second hose takes the filtered air and routes it into the hose between the AATAC and the intake manifold. I am not 100% positive of the first hose routing - the WSM is not clear. It only shows the separator with a tube underneath leading directly into the engine. Either the hose I mentioned could be the blow by source or the tube. I think it's the hose because it is the same size as the one taking the gases back to the intake - the gases will be equal in each hose but there will be only a slight amount of liquid oil separated out. So if I don't hear anything from Kubota, my plan is to replace the hose leading to the separator with a long hose I can route to the bottom of the engine and exit below. Then I will plug off the separator. I have emailed Kubota Customer Service and they said they are referring it to my dealer for an answer. My dealer has already told me that Kubota has avoided answering the question, the reason I went directly to Kubota. I have no problem dealing directly with my dealer - they are outstanding putting up with my pestering and doing everything they can to resolve. Kubota seems to be leaving the dealers and customers hang for now. So different than past with Cat, at least for my group. If I found a problem like this, I immediately got with our dealer hot lines with the latest info even if it was bad news saying we made a whoops, did not yet have a fix but explained what we knew, then kept them updated. What has me wondering about my mental health is that when I went tractor shopping I completely forgot that being a Cat retiree, I get an employee discount on Challenger equipment and that apparently merges in with the rest of the AGCO line. Not that Cat never screws up - my pre-retirement final years was engine field testing and problem resolution. Something like this engine deal is one where customers who were really upset wrote to Cat's CEO. Believe me you do not want to be on my end when the CEO gets a rationally upset letter from a customer.

 

[MHarryE]

I had the opportunity to sit down with my dealer and Kubota rep. I had a problem getting an answer because problems on my tractor size had not been reported. I have a neighbor with a M135GX and another with a M100GX. Both have used them through 2 winters feeding their beef cattle and moving snow without a problem. The other M135GX owner and I use our tractors extremely hard but he uses his hard all year round and mine sits out winters - except for the testing this winter due to my shifting concern. I walked away from the meeting feeling really good. The Kubota Area Service Rep couldn't be there but he did give his assurance to the dealer that if I have any further problem it will be handled. I have had 2 issues with this tractor and both have been handled above my expectations so now that I know why I don't get an oil separator kit (my tractor has a different separator than the M5200) I can now go play in our muddy spring thaw.