new or used tractor for farm?

[ron_sc]

Wow, good arguments both ways... Maybe I can ask my question a little differently. I think my needs will be as follows:

- convert ~10 acres of fescue pasture into dove fields (sunflowers, corn)
- mow ~ 5-10 acres of pasture, perhaps around a future pond and dam
- bushog some old roads and woods clearings
- build and maintain small food plots in woods, and down in bottomland
- clear some woods trails and woods clearings (hiring out any really heavy work)
- possibly move round hay bales if I get horses

Land is rolling hills, pretty dry except for 6 acres of bottomland that can be wet. No snow. Given these requirements, and a wish to stay under roughly $20k (new) with loader, would you rather have a 45 hp 4wd CUT such as a Kubota L4400, or a larger 65 hp 2wd utility tractor such as a JD 5303? These seem to have a similar price range. The 4wd CUT is about 2/3 the weight and hp of the 2wd utility tractor.

Thanks

 

[GaryCrowell]

Out of the two I would take the larger 2wd utility instead of the 4wd CUT. I've got a 72 HP Massey 4wd, I love the 4wd but if I had to make a choice between downsizing the tractor or giving up the 4wd I'd give up the 4wd. It's nice to have, but size is more important when you start doing real work. Keep in mind that most of the advice you get on this forum is from guys using CUT's. CUTs have made the tractor manufacturers a lot of money over the last ten years as agriculture declines and the 15 acre homeowner mini-farms came into vogue. They're good for the mini farm purposes but in my opinion what you're describing goes beyond that. The CUT's absolutely need the 4wd to make up for their lack of weight. I do a lot of work at our 1500 acre deer camp. Several of the guys bring down their small tractors to help out when we do food plots in the fall, but most of our work is done with an old 4020 (90 hp) John Deere. When it comes to getting work done quickly that old 4020 will do ten times the work as a 35-45 HP CUT will. They're just two different beasts. If you're wanting to do landscaping and small chores around a small "weekend" farm then get the CUT, if you want to do some real work, and dove fields and food plots come into that in my opinion, get a real tractor.

If it were me in your situation, I'd compromise and get something in a real utility tractor but with 4wd. You mentioned a JD 5105 for 23.5 with loader. Just get the tractor and save up for the loader next year, or expand your budget and get both now. Or try and find something comparable 3-4 years old that's within your budget. I do think 4wd is almost necessary when you're using a loader. I just don't think you'd be happy with the CUT. They're great for the mini farms, but when you start talking tilling food plots then you really need a real tractor.

 

[Soundguy]

Steering is also going to be a problme with a 2wd tractor in conditions that a 4wd one will easily drive through. I have a terrible time getting my 2wd tractor to turn when the front tires get in a muddy area.
Eddie

Steering brakes... Sometimes those front wheels are jsut there to keep the front of the engine off the ground...(grin)

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

I agree.. i didn't see anything in his post that would be a deal stopper with 2wd ( even though 4wd would be nice in some of the instances ).

However.. moving round bales.. for that.. bigger is deffinately better.. Gotta have weight to move weight safely.

Soundguy

Out of the two I would take the larger 2wd utility instead of the 4wd CUT. I've got a 72 HP Massey 4wd, I love the 4wd but if I had to make a choice between downsizing the tractor or giving up the 4wd I'd give up the 4wd. It's nice to have, but size is more important when you start doing real work. Keep in mind that most of the advice you get on this forum is from guys using CUT's. CUTs have made the tractor manufacturers a lot of money over the last ten years as agriculture declines and the 15 acre homeowner mini-farms came into vogue. They're good for the mini farm purposes but in my opinion what you're describing goes beyond that. The CUT's absolutely need the 4wd to make up for their lack of weight. I do a lot of work at our 1500 acre deer camp. Several of the guys bring down their small tractors to help out when we do food plots in the fall, but most of our work is done with an old 4020 (90 hp) John Deere. When it comes to getting work done quickly that old 4020 will do ten times the work as a 35-45 HP CUT will. They're just two different beasts. If you're wanting to do landscaping and small chores around a small "weekend" farm then get the CUT, if you want to do some real work, and dove fields and food plots come into that in my opinion, get a real tractor.

If it were me in your situation, I'd compromise and get something in a real utility tractor but with 4wd. You mentioned a JD 5105 for 23.5 with loader. Just get the tractor and save up for the loader next year, or expand your budget and get both now. Or try and find something comparable 3-4 years old that's within your budget. I do think 4wd is almost necessary when you're using a loader. I just don't think you'd be happy with the CUT. They're great for the mini farms, but when you start talking tilling food plots then you really need a real tractor.

 

[EddieWalker]

I've cleared 190 acres of steep, rocky, hilly, muddy ground......with 2WD. Sold that and now I'm working on another 45 acres needing clearing.....with 2wd.

I cleared my 1/2 mile driveway of sometimes deep snow for years......with 2wd

For 35 years I fed cattle every day, slick or not, frozen and snow covered or not, spring mud or not, and was never unable to get where I needed to go......with 2wd.

I bush hog pond banks, steep hills, and ditch lines.....with 2wd.

I did own a MFWD tractor for less than 10 years. I used it to chisel plow with. Never had any other need for it. In the approx. 1400 hours I logged on that tractor, MAYBE 20 hours of it was with the front end "locked in".

If there was mud so deep my 2wd tractors wouldn't go..... I'd go AROUND or wait 'till it dried up. Would have done the exact same thing even had I been on a 4WD. Why trash the tractor "just because I can"?

... out of well over 15,000 hours I've logged over the years. Not enough in my book to change tractors.

So far I haven't seen a reason why I need 4WD.

Farm,

I'm a big fan of yours and your posts. Your reply is about as good a reason for 2WD as I've seen. Soundguy has also made some very good arguments for 2WD. Both of you have given real world proof on your personal experinces with your tractors that far outweight mine. Compared to you and your level of experience, I'm just a newbie.

But I also disagree with you on what to recommend for Ron. He's a new landowner buying a large piece of land, and from what I gather, doesn't have allot of experience with tractors. As I'm sure you will agree, a seasoned expert can do far more with a lesser tractor than a newbie can with the very newest, bestest tractor around. Skill and experience are still what matters in running equipment.

I'm sure that with time and enough hours, he could get the same things done on his land with a larger 2wd tractor that he could get done with a newer, smaller 4wd tractor. It's not so much about getting stuck, or unstuck, but in being productive and accomplishing the task.

Do you think it's as easy to bush hog on a hill wth 2wd as it is in 4wd? Can you say that new owners of tractors will be able to run a bush hog, or disk a field or do any of a dozen tasks in 2wd that they could do easily in 4wd?

I have no problems with buying a 2wd tractor. My next one will probaby be just than. In fact, I would very much like to follow in Soundguys shoes and start a small collection of older tractors that are 2wd. But that's not what I'd recommend for Ron.

I'm also not sure of his mechanical skills, or desire to work on older tractors. I know there are always those deals out there when you can find an older tractor for a very good price in prestine condition, but those deals are few and far between. Most used tractors are just that. Used. This means that the new owner of it will be working on it from time to time. Repairs can be mild or extreme. There are enough posts on this forum to show that you never know what suprises you will find when you buy a used tractor.

For this reason, and my understanding that he wants to work on his land as much as possilbe, and he's not a gear head wanting to work on tractors, I suggest he buy new, or near new. Having a dealer close by that will support him is a huge factor in decideing what brand to buy. It makes no difference on which one he decides on, just as long as he can get parts for it. Even new tractors break, and new owners will break a tractor part much sooner than an experienced one.

With all your hours, I bet it's very rare that you bust something on your tractor. Unfortunately, the rest of us are still on the learning curve and breaking things that with more skill and knowledge, we could avoid. I only have a few thousand hours on equipment, and I'm still busting things that in hindsite I know that I could have done differnetly and not done the damage to my tractor that I did. Unfortunately, I'm sure you will agree, things happen out in the field that catch us by suprise.

With a new tractor and in 4wd, he's more likely to keep working and get the job done.

Eddie

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Farm,

I'm a big fan of yours and your posts. Your reply is about as good a reason for 2WD as I've seen. Soundguy has also made some very good arguments for 2WD. Both of you have given real world proof on your personal experinces with your tractors that far outweight mine. Compared to you and your level of experience, I'm just a newbie.

But I also disagree with you on what to recommend for Ron. He's a new landowner buying a large piece of land, and from what I gather, doesn't have allot of experience with tractors. As I'm sure you will agree, a seasoned expert can do far more with a lesser tractor than a newbie can with the very newest, bestest tractor around. Skill and experience are still what matters in running equipment.

I'm sure that with time and enough hours, he could get the same things done on his land with a larger 2wd tractor that he could get done with a newer, smaller 4wd tractor. It's not so much about getting stuck, or unstuck, but in being productive and accomplishing the task.

Do you think it's as easy to bush hog on a hill wth 2wd as it is in 4wd? Can you say that new owners of tractors will be able to run a bush hog, or disk a field or do any of a dozen tasks in 2wd that they could do easily in 4wd?

I have no problems with buying a 2wd tractor. My next one will probaby be just than. In fact, I would very much like to follow in Soundguys shoes and start a small collection of older tractors that are 2wd. But that's not what I'd recommend for Ron.

I'm also not sure of his mechanical skills, or desire to work on older tractors. I know there are always those deals out there when you can find an older tractor for a very good price in prestine condition, but those deals are few and far between. Most used tractors are just that. Used. This means that the new owner of it will be working on it from time to time. Repairs can be mild or extreme. There are enough posts on this forum to show that you never know what suprises you will find when you buy a used tractor.

For this reason, and my understanding that he wants to work on his land as much as possilbe, and he's not a gear head wanting to work on tractors, I suggest he buy new, or near new. Having a dealer close by that will support him is a huge factor in decideing what brand to buy. It makes no difference on which one he decides on, just as long as he can get parts for it. Even new tractors break, and new owners will break a tractor part much sooner than an experienced one.

With all your hours, I bet it's very rare that you bust something on your tractor. Unfortunately, the rest of us are still on the learning curve and breaking things that with more skill and knowledge, we could avoid. I only have a few thousand hours on equipment, and I'm still busting things that in hindsite I know that I could have done differnetly and not done the damage to my tractor that I did. Unfortunately, I'm sure you will agree, things happen out in the field that catch us by suprise.

With a new tractor and in 4wd, he's more likely to keep working and get the job done.

Eddie

I won't DISagree with your thinking. In fact, I'm inclined to suggest a 4wd for his IF....IF it fits within his budget AND that budget allows a big enough tractor, albiet 4WD, to do the job. By all reasoning, a 4WD of sufficient HP, size, weight, and "capacity to handle a load" should do anything a similar sized 2WD can do, and maybe just a tick MORE. In MOST cases I've encountered, I run out of horses more frequently than I run out of traction.

I'm NOT sold on the "better across the board" logic some would try to lead us to believe. There is a place for 2WD tractors.

And for the record, my views often result from looking at the most economically feasable options. In so many words, I'm just plain ol' CHEAP. I'd rather have an old fashioned tractor in my barn and most of my life savings in the bank. That makes those muddy days seem a little "dryer".

Thank you for presenting your view, listening to my view, and NOT getting bent out of shape over our difference of opinion. (A touchy subject with me lately)

 

[Soundguy]

, a seasoned expert can do far more with a lesser tractor than a newbie can with the very newest, bestest tractor around. Skill and experience are still what matters in running equipment.Eddie

That's actually a good argument.

In the end, my main concern is that the user can buy enough tractor to get his job done. in other words, if he needs a 'bigger' tractor than he can afford in 4wd.. then he may be better served by buying that proper sized tractor in 2wd, vs buying smaller than needed in 4wd.

I don't know thatt his is the case mind you.. I don't know his price limites.. etc. so this may not even be a point of concern.

My 2wd exp has come from a variety of reasons.. 1, my needs have been for mostly issues not requiring superior traction.. in thos cases.. i find another way to get the job done.. sometimes.. a big ole' 2wd simple has enough traction to do it.. even in bad conditions.. sometimes ya got to get creative, or just wait. 2, I plan my tractor purchase based on about 80% of it's work.. this kinda ties in with #1.. that is.. if 80% of my work can be done with 2wd.. then i'm usually too cheap to get the 4wd just to do the few odd tasks that may benefit from it.

I'm one of those guys that had a nice 4wd and traded it for a bigger 2wd.. glad I did.. wouldn't have been able to do it the other way around... that little 33hp tractor just couldn't pull the 15' mower (grin).

I only used my 4wd a couple times... once to disc with.. and nce to get horribly stuck.. bad stuck.. real bad stuck.. like hours of digging with other men helping, and a truck and snatch straps, timber and wedges for the tires.

That supremly lowered my expectations about 4wd that day. Seems to me that if i need 4wd to get in.. I may not be needing to be in there.. cause 4wd might not get me out...


Soundguy

 

[EddieWalker]

Farm & Sound,

I wonder if the we should be focussing on how much HP he needs to do what he wants. I have a 35 hp Century CUT that is 4wd and it's too small for my acerage. I bought it brand new without a FEL for just under $11,000.

If I was looking for a tractor to do what he wants, I'd want another ten HP. I think that a 45 HP tractor in 4wd will be able to do just about everything he's listed and do it well. It won't handle a batwing mower, but it will hanldle a 6 foot shredder just fine with power to spare. After then, most impliments will work with less power, but the bigger shredders are what he needs power and size to handle.

The next qestion would be how big a disk he can pull with that sized tractor. Again, my 35hp tractor pulls my 5 foot disk easy. I wanted a 6 foot, but found the deal on the smaller one that was too good to pass. I'd think that with 45 hp, he could pull an 8 foot disk if he wanted to spend the money for it. A 6 foot would do the job too, but just take a little longer.

If the HP is right, then he needs to think about what brand. That realy should be based on his budget and what dealers are close to him that he feels are reliable and honest.

Again, just my opinion based on what he's asked and what I think will do the best job for what he needs to do.

Eddie

 

[mjarrels]

I'm with soundguy... the only tractor I have been stuck is my 4WD orange tractor. My two wheel tractors have never been stuck and my one wheel drive truck has never been stuck but I've seen a lot of 4WD trucks stuck. Sometimes you need to think before acting.

"A chief starts out knowing nothing about nothing... but ends up knowing everything about everything"

mark

 

[Mickey_Fx]

The thread has been an interesting read. My experience is closer to a newbie than real experienced user. My first thought after reading the original post was, "sound like a Utility model in the 50 HP range and from what was said, 2wd should fit the bill." Don't know anything about conditions in that part of the country so any recommendation would be sure spectulation.

When I had a small custom haying business I had a MF 165D. Was more than enough tractor for my needs. Had 1200 hrs on it when purchased. Used a mower conditioner and typ field would yield 4t/acre. Spit out 50# bails about every 10sec. The tractor worked hard to justify its keep. Used a little less than a gal/hr. Didn't see many 4wd tractor back them. Currently have a much smaller CUT with 4wd. for my 4 acres. It also get the job done and rarely is used with 4wd locked in.

For the original poster, ask and look around, what kind of tractors do you see. What do others say about need for 4wd. You mentioned doing some work in the wooded area. Any size limitation for moving around the woods? Would a FEL add problems in the woods? If a FEL is in the picture, I'd recommend a model that was quick removal if needed in the woods. 50 HP should be more than adequate for field work, plowing, disking for the 10 acres you mention. I run a 5' rotary mower with my 24HP CUT and it has more than enough power. 50HP model could handle a lot more than that.

New Vs used, I watch my purse strings as much as I suspect Soundguy and TWJ does. Have no problem looking at use equip. I would pay more attention to hrs than age. A diesel model should be good for about 5k hrs and would not have any concerns about looking at something with 2k hrs on the meter IF the rest of the machine was decent and everything was working well. My CUT is 20 yrs old with 1200 hrs. Starts easily and runs well, uses no oil and no oil leaks. For a given budget, used will get you more.

Lot of valid comment from both Soundguy and farmwithjunk. I'd give their comments a lot of weight.