new tractor idea possibly....

[boggen]

transport wheels.... eletrical wheel hub motor, brakes, suspension, and rotation of wheel in one small package.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tLQ2-yKT4Y
to above video, redoing suspension, a little bit to raise and lower wheels possibly.
also to above video, tire pressure gauge... never thought about a wireless sensor. that has some sort of "motion" generator in it. to produce electricity. (as the generator / sensor rotates around the wheel, the rotation itself causes generator to spin)

ok, finally hit me, seeing the video, it finally hit me. hyd motor vs electrical motors. and that is the internal parts. or rather. a hyd motor, is going to require some sort of cylinders and rods to create the rotation force. vs a eletrical motor. only has 1 single rotational part.

i take above back geared typed of hyd motors / hyd pumps. less moving parts = less wear and tear long term. but in order to get to something advanced enough in hyd motors to adjust RPM's and/or Torque there would be a need for a good amount of additional mechanical parts that move...

================
hit wikipedia, for electrical motors, and found my way onto, relays, and never even thought about use of them. and used like a pressurize relief valve in hydraulics. so much amps / volts and a relay begins opening or closing the circuit some, to change amount of amps / volts going to the motor.

================
do not have a slightest idea about math / formulas / equations, to even to begin to roughly size a motor based, on wire gauge, and loops in a winding/coil. to produce either RPM's and/or torque.

the other part is.... multi phase wiring.... and can i get past the DC to A/C conversion at the generator. awe..... wire gauge and distance being ran...

================
other issue, is water jacket, if electrical motor needs cooling. and then emergency brake / fail safe brake. and then some sort of cover for the brakes themselves.

 

[boggen]

110HP wheel motor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnhmND1KQ_4

DIY / water cooling for a wheel motor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0aRmSR4a8o

wheel motor actually spinning, and changing RPMs i think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaIwTTpztaI&feature=endscreen&NR=1

guessing some sort of memory product made into a wheel for the army?
got to thinking regular 4 foot diameter AG/R1 tractor tire. and able to place more rubber to the surface.
New Tire Technology Used on a Pick Up Truck - YouTube

yikes, long 135 page pdf. going over various aspects of a squirrel cage motor.
http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot259.nsf/veritydisplay/bf88560fb1b0335cc2256fc6003e4e05/$file/motor%20guide%20gb%2002_2005.pdf

*gets lost, in all the specs and configurations...*
ABB Motors and Generators

little funky, it is a website built into a program. and there is some "wait time" between downloading stuff, and what information becomes available in a PDF file.)
GE US English Catalogs
GE Energy - Motors Overview

wheel motor company
PML - Innovators in Motion. Manufacturers of Flat motors, pancake motors, wheelmotors, joysticks, drives and controls.

 

[boggen]

been battling with autodesk for last couple days. and not really much to show for it.

been trying to find the groove per say. of working through things and thinking a few steps ahead, in how to draw something up. and finding some things do and do not work so well. resulting in restarting from scratch a few times. the constraints of autodesk is the big one, and then dimensions linked to constraints. just makes things into garbage after so many edits.... do not pull a dimension off before changing another value and i end up with foo bar...

below is finally something that did not result in geometry not looking like a rag dog, after the puppies had it for a few minutes...

diagram created with autodesk inventor student edition.


dual transport wheels
---tire and rim lip (if you could even call it that, (quick and dirty))
---inner rim, with magnets on it. for an electrical motor. (have not figured out how to do elliptical or wavy "coils" of wire just yet) and hopefully some room for some brakes
---T shape support structure.
---axle though at moment showing as a single axle vs 2 half axles. not really sure how much room an electrical motor will take up. and it may come down to placing motor in one wheel, and brakes in the other wheel.


==============
office 2010 excel installed, so hopefully now will be able to go through some more tutorials that requires excel usage.
updated satellite, so hopefully should be good to go, even if i do go over my current plan max megabytes.

 

[PapaPerk]

Looks like you are making good progress. Inventor and other solid modeling software has a big learning curve. Hang in there!

 

[Ken]

been battling with autodesk for last couple days. and not really much to show for it.

been trying to find the groove per say. of working through things and thinking a few steps ahead, in how to draw something up. and finding some things do and do not work so well. resulting in restarting from scratch a few times. the constraints of autodesk is the big one, and then dimensions linked to constraints. just makes things into garbage after so many edits.... do not pull a dimension off before changing another value and i end up with foo bar...

below is finally something that did not result in geometry not looking like a rag dog, after the puppies had it for a few minutes...

diagram created with autodesk inventor student edition.
View attachment 283651

dual transport wheels
---tire and rim lip (if you could even call it that, (quick and dirty))
---inner rim, with magnets on it. for an electrical motor. (have not figured out how to do elliptical or wavy "coils" of wire just yet) and hopefully some room for some brakes
---T shape support structure.
---axle though at moment showing as a single axle vs 2 half axles. not really sure how much room an electrical motor will take up. and it may come down to placing motor in one wheel, and brakes in the other wheel.


==============
office 2010 excel installed, so hopefully now will be able to go through some more tutorials that requires excel usage.
updated satellite, so hopefully should be good to go, even if i do go over my current plan max megabytes.

Ryan on the elec. wheels it is DC voltage and for brakes reverse the voltage. Also the DC voltage is pulsed to increase the speed so voltage remains constant.
ken

 

[boggen]

Looks like you are making good progress. Inventor and other solid modeling software has a big learning curve. Hang in there!

*shrugs* learning curve really not that bad, it is finding the limits, that gets a little frustrating. and in that thx for encouragement!

Ryan on the elec. wheels it is DC voltage and for brakes reverse the voltage. Also the DC voltage is pulsed to increase the speed so voltage remains constant.
ken

i do not think i am going to get away from. having some sort of brakes, disc to drum, wet or dry type. for fail safe backup. if electrical goes out. (example turning machine off while parked on a hill) there is going to need be for something. to hold the machine from rolling down the hill. and one of things i did pickup from looking at trains, is once RPM's get so low, breaking with motors becomes less. and need to rely on a secondary mechanical braking is necessary.

the post 202, i did catch some of the notation of changing the mufti wave forms of the electrical single. being sent to the coils of an electrical motor. my brain got a bit overloaded, by all the blah blah, vs needing the cut and dry form, of example of math. while voltage might stay the same, the AMP's do change. it is one or the other. amps or volts that change, and then pulse or wave pattern of the electrical single. or less i am missing something?

just kinda passed on electrical motors, for time being before really digging into them. need to hit some more tutorials, and figure out a way to get inventor to draw a oval shape coil. or waved shaped coils.

====================

yesterday, backed away form inventor, to look up rotation seals, to deal with water/antifreeze (coolant) and air for (fail safe brakes) and getting inlet/outlet for fluid and then air through the 360 joint for transport wheels.

----the shaft or make that pipes going through the 360 joint, will not be rotating at any sort of RPM (revolutions per minute) but rather short degrees of 0 to 360 degrees. and rarely making a full rotation. that alone puts limits of what seals can be used. with many seal types relying on some RPM to create an actual seal.

----PSI (pressure) both for air, and coolant. is another issue, not just regular pressure during normal operation, but also when coolant over heats and boils over. and max relief valve setting for compressed air.

----temperature for coolant fluid.

----diameter of seals, and needing...
--------electrical wiring, and/or frame
--------1 to hold back fluid
--------(coolant)
--------1 to hold back fluid on both sides of the seal
--------(coolant)
--------1 to hold back fluid on one side, compressed air on other side of seal
--------(fail safe for breaks)
--------1 to hold back compressed air
--------electrical wiring, and/or frame

----with above, then being limited to "height" or length. either above or below the 360 joint.

---other issue, is some seals are made for single direction rotation (clockwise or counter clockwise rotation) and not bi-directional rotation.

================
other issue, with coolant, is controlling how much GPM of coolant goes were. with hyd oil, and hyd motors, there was valves already in place. to control amount of fluid and were it went. but with water/antifreeze mix like coolant. there is nothing there. by default, or less i wanted to make a mile long path for coolant to circulate through. or place some sort of small size pumps or valving to help control how much coolant goes were. if nothing extra was put in, the result would be the path of least resistance would happen. and all coolant would go through path of least resistance, causing everything else to over heat. and tossing a bigger pump on and calling it good enough. does not cut it either.

other words, complexity of hyd motors vs electrical motors. electrical motors just got more complex, and needing a control system just to deal with coolant.

how the control system is put into place may have a very distinct advantage or dis-advantage. to min / max pressure and the 360 joint, and in that the seals.

===============
alright getting back to seals.... links....

search terms.... rotary, rotation, swivel, seal, bearing, mechanical, hydraulic, coolant, compressed air, joint
mixing and matching terms, seems about only way to get results back.

pictures of various seal types
Seal Types

manufacture of seals
Sealing Solutions | The Garlock family of companies

looks like some sort of school / text book, info for seals ((links to other companies at bottom left of pages of seals))
Seals

another description of types of seals
Dynamic Seals

goes over seal types as well.
http://machining.grundfos.com/media/16602/shaftseal_chapter2.pdf

one of my side tracks, to look at "unions" or "couplers" or "swivel connections" for dealing with 360 joint
Rotating Swivels - Rotary Swivels - Rotary Couplings - Rotary Joints - Rotary Unions

i am still reading the 400 plus pages of this pdf covering multiple seal types.
http://www.parker.com/literature/Engineered Polymer Systems/5350.pdf

================
*rubs eyes*, knocks the skull. yep still there.

page 205 couple pages for requesting help in selecting a seal type.
http://www.parker.com/literature/Engineered Polymer Systems/5350.pdf

one long PDF, but reminds me of "text books" in school. explanation and math, and design. all wrapped into one, without any extra blah.

more info on seals...
http://www.parker.com/literature/Engineered Polymer Systems/5340.pdf

================
getting electrical wires through the 360 joint...

up to this point, been thinking about having electrical wires, run up through the very center of the 360 joint, but i think, i am going to switch that over to a "pancake" design. vs joystick up to this point. just need something with better long lasting brushes or multi brush setup. for U-ring shaped metal contacts... cost will be higher for pancake vs joystick design. but may give me those few 1/8 of an inch that might be needed.

back to inventor. to see what happens...

below quick and dirty. of reducing seals / bearings down to 3 to deal with coolant and compressed air.

 

[boggen]

:/ need to come up with a better way to pancake the electrical wires, going through the 360 joint.

perhaps a U channel, and then an upside down U channel of copper or like. and let them rub against each other. with some springs located every so often around the U channel circle.

perhaps do something like various oil seals and like do. and form a single flat bar wrapped around a circle. with a spring on one side. to cause the circle of metal to want to get tighter around the center. and then do anther flat bar and spring. but this time put a spring to cause the flat bar to want to get "larger" in diameter. that actually might work.

problem is. man, that metal bar might get rather heavy, and rather thick... to handle the AMP's and/or Volts going through it. hhmmsss *light bulb*

 

[PapaPerk]

:/ need to come up with a better way to pancake the electrical wires, going through the 360 joint.

perhaps a U channel, and then an upside down U channel of copper or like. and let them rub against each other. with some springs located every so often around the U channel circle.

perhaps do something like various oil seals and like do. and form a single flat bar wrapped around a circle. with a spring on one side. to cause the circle of metal to want to get tighter around the center. and then do anther flat bar and spring. but this time put a spring to cause the flat bar to want to get "larger" in diameter. that actually might work.

problem is. man, that metal bar might get rather heavy, and rather thick... to handle the AMP's and/or Volts going through it. hhmmsss *light bulb*

Does the 360 joint have a home position? If so then I would just us a cable. Wipers, etc get very complicated and have reliability issues.

 

[boggen]

the 360 joint has taken a life of its own....

after getting fed up with constraints. i backed down, to just using parallel and perpendicular restraints. and using variable names, as dimensions are entered. slow going, but so far AWE! *looks relieved* less head aches...

was not really liking how far the last diagram in post 206, was poking up into the air. above the 360 joint. little bit different design. with 6 channels of bearings, and 6 seals. but looking much better and possibly a little bit more compact. still working on the new design with 2 Fluids (1 inlet / 1 outlet) and 1 compressed air.

various random diagrams. as i attempt to learn autodesk, and get something done for the 360 joint.



p.s. going to need to get a new keyboard, with higher raised bumps for F and J keys i keep sliding right over the bumps with fingers... :/

 

[boggen]

Does the 360 joint have a home position? If so then I would just us a cable. Wipers, etc get very complicated and have reliability issues.

cable. i don't know about that, though what you call wipers, maybe something completely different than what i am thinking they are, if ya ever had a toy train set, or played with them wired remote control cars that rain on there own powered track, to just dealing with brushes for regular electrical motors for power tools. need something that will last both from plain old corrosion build up, but also wipers, or a brush, or like. needs some "wear and tear" built into them. so things do not grove things out and cut right through things....

the hinges or fasteners also take a good amount of abuse that hold things. trying my best to stay away from any sort of "sharp" bending of metal strips. or less extra thickness is placed in.

 

[PapaPerk]

the 360 joint has taken a life of its own....

after getting fed up with constraints. i backed down, to just using parallel and perpendicular restraints. and using variable names, as dimensions are entered. slow going, but so far AWE! *looks relieved* less head aches...

was not really liking how far the last diagram in post 206, was poking up into the air. above the 360 joint. little bit different design. with 6 channels of bearings, and 6 seals. but looking much better and possibly a little bit more compact. still working on the new design with 2 Fluids (1 inlet / 1 outlet) and 1 compressed air.

various random diagrams. as i attempt to learn autodesk, and get something done for the 360 joint.

View attachment 284450

p.s. going to need to get a new keyboard, with higher raised bumps for F and J keys i keep sliding right over the bumps with fingers... :/

Nice drawings! Yes that looks like "wipers" or brushes. I would seriously avoid using them unless absolutely necessary. I think a cable will be much more reliable and robust out in the mud... just my 2 cents. :2cents::2cents:

 

[PapaPerk]

Okay more cents... :2cents:

In my opinion you should design your equipment around already available and proven components. No need to reinvent the wheel as they say. My point is directed to the end goal of building a working prototype.

No need to spend large amounts of time developing individual components. Develop the system as a whole first using available components. Only custom design stuff when absolutely necessary. If the prototype is put into production... THEN all the custom parts, etc will be designed by a team of engineer and suppliers of those parts and pieces.

Work from macro to micro with the design... again just MY opinion! I'm very impressed with your efforts! Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

 

[boggen]

fully here ya PapaPerk, of using what is already out there on the market already. and only custom make, what needs to be custom made.

as far as "pre-made" stuff, that is what i am sorely lacking at moment. are resources to fall back on to. that i can just open file, pull dimensions and drop into a assembly of parts. internet searches, so far have not really been that great. parts here and there, of completely random stuff. does not do me much good.

was hoping i might be able to find specifications on websites, or a form to fill out even, to connect to various companies database servers / computers, that had "pre-made" parts. that i could pull up into inventor or some other 3D program. or order some sort of DVD disc with parts on them. but so far, i have not found anything.

i just can't go to some local parts store and open up some part books, not all the info is there for full dimensions. to even create a 3D diagram of a given part.

most likely going to need to pick up the old phone and start calling around.

================
ya got me lost on cable.

or less ya mean, just placing a cable right around the 360 joint. and make sure the 360 joint does not ever do a full 360 in either direction. or risk pulling the cable apart. that i am trying to avoid completely. were cable by passes the 360 joint and does not allow for full 360 degree rotations.

 

[boggen]

16 to 20 hours shot.... on that idea. awe well.... time to try again on a different fluid / air going through 360 joint.

problem, to large of of overall diameter once done. it gave me a few ideas...

below might work out nicely, would imagine, there already some sort of ball bearing and seal combo i might be able to slide right in. without to much fuss, if not, should be able to find seal that would fit in, along with some ball bearings.


=====================
googled "electrical rotary connector" clicked over on images. and wealth of pictures showed up right away.

thinking about a male or female connectors on top of the "electrical rotary connector" and then a male or female connector on bottom of the "electrical rotary connector". for quick replacement.

did a search for "electrical rotary connector 30amp" and got a few hits back. tried 50amp and 60amp and did not get any were fast.

=====================
i saw key words "fluid rotary union" in a pdf file...

and heart skipped a beat.... *chuckles* figures after spending a 3 to 4 days so far on 360 joint just for fluid / air.

======================
a search for "brushes wipers electric -windshield" came upon this page, not exactly what i was thinking but close enough.
http://store.eurtonelectric.com/specialshapes.aspx

 

[boggen]

starting to get the hang of things better.

scissors like a scissor lift might use is no good. forgot all about. how scissors change sizes as the extend up and down. was more hoping for "fixed" points. and avoid and sort of track setup.

 

[boggen]

figured i would go a searching for ways folks have already done as far as limited how much something could hinge. via block stops or like. and came across Heavy / ODC Transport in India interesting pictures. plus a spread sheet of companies in heavy transport businesses and how many things they sold.

TIP: click on below link, then click on the image to see a GIF animation of a locking cylinder. looks nice and simple, and for transport wheels holding would be critical. was thinking about something to add around the rod or something to lock everything in position. hhmmsss
Lock-on-Extend :: PFA Incorporated

not really liking the screw / thread locking setup. sounds like just asking for trouble of threads catching and binding up.
Locking cylinder - Cottrell, Inc.

don't know. get a wheel caught up in a good rut, and mud just sucking wheel down further.... will removing the diameter of the rod some for a locking setup. hold long term or cause problems with rod bending.
A traning of self-locking hydraulic cylinder-Hydraulic Cylinder

=================

boy did i get myself i trouble...
goto google type in site: Miniature Construction World - Homepage
(site: then the website address) click search
click over on images.
lots of pictures!!!

highlights from above site....

((check site out itself good paragraphs for every picture!))

Miniature Construction World - Scheuerle SPMT Set

Miniature Construction World - Scheuerle InterCombi with Volvo FH16 - Van der Meijden

if it was only 360 degrees... turning...
Miniature Construction World - MAN TGX XXL SLT with Goldhofer STZ-H6 Semi-Trailer

Miniature Construction World - Title

it might be a trailer, with frame under neath. and as wheels raise with hyd cylinder excavator comes off the ground. but looks very promising.

did not catch this till i almost closed out of it....
2 trailers. and then caring a heavy object between them.
Miniature Construction World - MAN TGX XXL 8x4 with Goldhofer 16-axle Girder Trailer

never really thought about it, but triangle piece for allowing longer lengths....
Miniature Construction World - Hitachi Zaxis 350LCK Tracked Excavator

long since past idea for transport wheels. just takes up to much room. for a single axle. on being able to rotate wheels all the way around between transport mode and field mode.
Miniature Construction World - MAN TGX 6x2 with Nooteboom 3XL Teletrailer

again. to much room taken up to spin wheels around between transport mode and field mode.
Miniature Construction World - MAN TGX with LTM11200 Boom Transporter

been thinking something along these lines, as i was messing with autodesk inventor student edition, and last set of transport wheels i posted to this thread for the lower frame. (partial reason for ball socket joints on end of cylinders. to deal with (row crop spacing of tires)
Miniature Construction World - Kenworth T908 Prime Mover with Drake 8x4 Swingwing Trailer and 8x2 Dolly

=============
off to see what i can draw up with the funky trailer wheels from above.

 

[boggen]

getting a tad aggravated, every time i get close to finishing something up, autodesk inventor crashes, or causes computer to lock up tight.

it took me a while, with autodesk to figure out how to create dimensions at an angle vs horizontal or vertical. as soon as i did it, i accidentally grabbed a hold of one of the dots and dragged a few things out of proportion. so was like COOL! so i started to draw up some lines for linkages for transport wheels, to get a better view point of how things would happen. after first couple diagrams. it turned into a "hang man" game. not joking! couple of the diagrams, when moving, looks like someone hanging upside down, with there feet tucked in, and doing sit-ups.



without getting to carried, i am able to set so many dimensions and angles, and then leave any were from 1 or 2 dimensions as "unknown" to act like hyd cylinders. and leave angles between lines left alone to act like hinges.

i am stilling having a rough time, of what to go with. more so the "arc" or path that transport wheels make when raising and lowering them.
and then dealing with trying to dimension out right at 8 feet. to deal with being on the road in transport mode, then switching over to field mode.
the other issue is amount of hydraulic cylinders.

been going back and forth. to deal with spacing tires for "row crop" i think i am down to placing a bracket on each side between 2 sets of transport wheels. and then the clamps or brackets that mount up on the SSTT main spine of a frame. making some extra holes there. to adjust wheel spacing. 10 to 20 bolts. if figure 2 bolts per bracket, should not require any other machine, besides a farm jack (4 to 6 foot tall farm jack) to slide things over. and extra thought placed in length of hoses and wires. to allow for wheel spacing and not having to redo them. be kinda like redoing wheel spacers of 6 or 12 wheel current age tractor. well transport wheels could do a min of 90 degree angle turn. may not even need a jack. just a chain binder or like. to help do finial adjustments to align holes up.

so down to how to place cylinders.....

would like to try to keep it down to 1 cylinder per set of transport tires a set = 2 tires aka duals. like a narrow front end tractor set of tires. it would make things that much more simpler to go with 2 cylinders per set of transport wheels. to allow virtually unlimited positioning. problem is complexity....and points of failure raises not doubling but exponential i would think.

off to autodesk inventor. and look at 2 cylinder options. and see about some mockup 3Ds

 

[boggen]

hhhmmsss....
not really liking that the wheels stick out almost 10 inches as the wheels raise upwards.

shortening the links reduces how far transport wheels stick out in field mode. but still 7 plus inches.



:confused2::confused2: rolls off to bed

 

[boggen]

not much done today. been fighting autodesk inventor constraints. and taking 1 step forward 3 steps backwards :/



for the transport wheels see last diagram above. thinking of just mounting the cylinder portion of a hyd cylinder. directly to the main frame. so the cylinder is not able to actually freely move in any sort of direction. and lust let the Rod go down and connect to the sub-frame that the transport wheels are connected to.

other solutions for transport wheels in this thread. just causes to much free play. and end up chasing tail around. something bends here, or holes wobble out, pins slightly bend, and things just start falling apart. and binding up on to one another. then the "swing out" of other solutions for transport wheels. is a big problem when it comes implements. more the transport wheels "swing out" further the implement has to be swung out. so the implement does not bind up and come back up on the transport tires, taking both tires and portion of the implement out at the same time.

======================
trying to figure out what might be the best approach to "beef" up things. so the rod of the hyd cylinder does not need to be overly sized diameter up beyond comprehension, let alone $$$. also need to come up with a better solution than using approx 40" inch extend/contract hyd cylinder.

thinking C channel metal bar. with wheels in it, that first come to mind, but i am not about to fight a stinking little wheel. that is catching and tearing things up. on a conveyer belt ok. enough little wheels mass produced. but beefer wheels for the C channel track metal bar for transport wheels... first reaction, is.... see how much explosive it takes or how much needs to be cut out, in order to get things operational and in working order.

i am a little on edge with using a pipe inside of a pipe. not actually a hyd cylinder. but just a pipe inside of a pipe. to help transfer forces between transport wheels and the main frame and vise verses. but with pipe, once you start to get a bend and pipe begins pinching. ya in trouble quickly. on other hand pipe inside of another pipe. allows nice even surface all the way around to absorb and transfer stresses and force from multi directions.

perhaps a I (capital i) or T beam, inside of a C channel beam. and toss some grease zerks in. i would get away from pesky wheels in the track of a C channel. gain strength in 2 different axis (X,Y, and not Z). Z = hyd cylinder itself. if something does begin to bend to pint of pinching. it would most likely cause the C channel beam to open up some. and some relief valves for the hyd cylinder go off. but would most likely still be able to raise and lower the transport wheel. it may be on its final leg. but perhaps enough to get things back to the shop so it can be repaired.

================
I or T beam inside of a C beam, i like it.

but what sort of configuration to put them in, and placing the hyd cylinder into the mix........

off to autodesk inventor.... to hopefully draw something up that is possible.

 

[boggen]

just been doodling some for extra frame work to go side by side with hyd cylinders for transport wheels.



been trying to create 2 C channels that interlock and slide in one another. but having hard time actually drawing it out. i see it in my mind. but so far been unlucky. i think most of the want is more of wanting to learn how to do it in autodesk inventor like a challenge

though looking at triangle setup 2 pipe sliders, and 1 hyd cylinder. welded or clamped together in a triangle formation at the ends.

also I beam and C channel on each side of a hyd cylinder. and it just hit me. like DUH! there are 2 hyd cylinders. and i can count on frame work on each hyd cylinder. to help deal with twisting and forces / stresses... alright. that makes sense. back to autodesk.