New User Moderators

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

As you know, over the past few months, the number of users and posts to the forums has increased quite a bit... with now over 500 posts per day on average.

To help assist in usual moderation duties, several users have been appointed moderators of various different sections of the site.

Moderators have the ability to edit posts for formatting issues, and delete posts that violate our terms of service (advertising, flaming, insults, etc). The moderation will be the same from the new moderators as it has been from myself over the past four years.

These members need no introduction, but you should know that they will also now be assisting with moderation, and identified with moderator titles.

John Miller, III
Roger_Scotty

Several more moderators may be added soon, as well. You might notice now if a post is marked as edited by one of the users listed above, it's because they are moderators and have that ability.

You can also do your part and help us keep the content of the forum at the highest level, by using the "notify moderator" feature (

) attached to each post, when you see a message you think the moderators should look at.

 

[looch]

Taken from the Terms of Use:

TractorByNet.com has the right to delete, edit, or decline to publish any information provided by those accessing the site at any time and for any reason or that TractorByNet.com in its sole discretion deems to be unacceptable.

<font color=blue>The moderation will be the same from the new moderators as it has been from myself over the past four years.</font color=blue>

It would seem that by your own terms of use and by your own latest actions that these moderators could delete anything they choose.

If you delete this post, you can delete my account.

 

[Muhammad]

<font color=blue>It would seem that by your own terms of use and by your own latest actions that these moderators could delete anything they choose.</font color=blue>

No, moderators follow a set of guidelines of their own, that tells them what they should and should not do. That does not include "delete anything you want" and I don't think anybody who has been a member of this forum for any amount of time would expect that. Moderators aren't allowed to abuse their privileges, just as users are not allowed to abuse their privileges.

 

[looch]

The part of the quoted sentence that was supposed to stand out was:

<font color=blue>by your own latest actions</font color=blue>

I was trying to be subtle about the fact that you chose to delete the posts that prompted you to start this thread. Maybe I should have used italics.

Could you clarify what privileges exactly that I am abusing?

I really like this site, and I want to stick around - but I'm not about to clam up.

 

[BobT]

pbenven,

I thought he answered you, that it was simply because of formatting issues that the post or thread was amended. Maybe I missed something...

It seems to me perfectly reasonable for Muhammad to enlist assistance in watching over up to 700+ posts A DAY. All of those TBN members he has selected as moderators have demonstrated over thosuands of their own posts, excellent knowlege of the management needs of the forum.

You have been around long enough too, to realize that while a lot gets discussed here, TBN is definitely NOT one of those no-holds-barred, screaming-flame discussion boards. Ain't going to happen.

I think to look deeply for some "offense" here is simply trying to write a new Shakepearean scene in "Much Ado About Nothing." <bg>

 

[MossRoad]

Sounds like a good idea to me. I don't know how you could have done such a great job for this long as it is. Keep up the great work, it is much appreciated.

 

[looch]

<font color=blue>Maybe I missed something</font color=blue>

You tell me.

Another user notices a thread that has been edited by a different user than who originally posted it.

Muhammad replies to our queries by saying that there are 7 other members who have moderator access.

I sent a message of protest in my next post because I thought this was a rather sneaky way of doing things. I think it should have been announced ahead of time with the reasons these users were selected and what exactly their responsibilities entail. But no, I'm sure if Harv had remembered to remove that blessed check mark from the "Mark thread as edited box," or if the other user hadn't had said something, we would have been none the wiser.

What happens next? Mine and a couple of other users' posts are deleted. No vulgarity, no insults, no flaming.

I think it would be a stretch to find better people as moderators than those listed above. If you think that's my issue then you've missed the point completely.

 

[TonyC]

For the record, Muhammad, I think it's terrific that you're getting some help, and quality people to boot. This is the best forum I have ever been a member of so keep doing whatever you're doing and with our thanks.

 

[RobS]

Outstanding... both in Muhammad's efforts to date and the methods used to keep up with the tremendous growth of this site. I have every confidence the newly appointed moderators will maintain the same standards for the board. Congratulations to Harv, John, Mike and Roger /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[PitbullMidwest]

I sent Muhammad a PM with my feelings about this issue, but I agree with pbenven. We should not have found out about the user moderators because I raised the issue of one user editing another user's message. Even if it was just for formating, I had no way of knowing what Harv added, subtracted or changed or how he had the ability to do it.

This isn't personnal towards Harv or anyone else, this isn't about whether TBN is a great site or not and it's not about whether Muhammad needs help. It is about one member having the ability to change another member's post without that member having pre-knowledge that it could happen or why it might happen.

Deleting the "Ugly Kubota" thread was also unnecessary since nothing in the thread violated the user agreement.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but so be it.

 

[looch]

Thanks for chiming in.

Paul

 

[Muhammad]

The issues as I understand them:

1) Moderators do not have the same privileges as admins so a moderator would not remove the messages I removed earlier.

2) Moderators do not have the option to NOT mark a post as edited. Hence, Harv did not forget to uncheck the "mark as edited" box. You can see that over the past month or so, there have been several posts edited by our new moderators.

3) What the moderators can do when editing is strictly related to formatting. You will have to trust them, as I trust them, to not abuse their privileges. Under no circumstances is a moderator to edit the actual "content" of a post... this is clearly stated in the moderator guidelines.

4) Why wasn't this announced before today, and before it was brought up by another user? Quite simply stated, the user moderators have only been moderators for about a week... we've been straightening out some technical issues and thinking about where to post them as moderators... whether a one-time posting or permanent. Since the issue was brought up, I felt it was appropriate to make the announcement today.

5) Never was it our intentions, or actions, to "keep this a secret" ... nothing could make that more obvious than the fact that all of the edited posts have in fact been marked as edited.

Does that explain your concerns? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[gordon]

I guess I'm sort of old school and if this post puts me in some hot water so be it. First I see the need for adding moderators with the amout of posts each day. I have no problems with that. A moderator should be able to delete an offensive post if need be. Simple as that.

My personal feelings are that if they edit a post to what they think is correct might change the meaning of the post. After all if you edit the posts format then aren't you changing the meaning of the post? I'm not trying to desrespect anybody here just making a point.

I've been a member for a few months and also made a few posts and yes there have been a couple of my posts that have been deleted. Did I agree with this? No I didn't but this isn't my board so I don't have the final say in the matter.

I do think as with other boards it should say that the moderator has chosen to edit this post. Also I think that the member should be notified of the edit and as to why it was done.

Thank you for letting us post our views on this matter. This won't be the first time I've put myself in hot water and more than likely wont be the last.

So let me go put some ice in the water/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Gordon

 

[Steelfan]

Paul, When was the last time you this much fun for free. This site costs you nothing. Let's start there, then look at the guys chosen, I'd say they are quality people. Have some faith in the fact that maybe everything isn't a plot to ruin something great. The man is just asking for some help. That is just my opinion take it or leave it.
Kent

 

[MarkV]

There must be something that is upsetting people about new moderators that I don’t understand. Is it that we know these moderators and the other moderators are people on Muhammad’s staff that we are not as familiar with? It sounds like all the moderators are following the same guidelines.

When I first read this tread I thought it was being said that a moderator was editing, as in changing someone’s words, but, in rereading Muhammad’s words it says<font color=blue>”edit posts for formatting issues”</font color=blue>. Doesn’t this mean fixing a post that has to large of photo’s, or runs off the page? Where is the problem with that? A post fits the format or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t it needs to be fixed. Makes it easier for everyone to read.

It also says,<font color=blue>” delete posts that violate our terms of service (advertising, flaming, insults, etc)”</font color=blue> I can see where this could be more of a judgement call than formatting issues, although there have always been moderators on the forum with the same authority. Isn’t that why so many of us so often express how much we like this forum community compared to others? Again, I don’t see the problem. I have read some post that were offensive to me or had gotten over heated to the point that it took the enjoyment out of being on the site. If anything it sounds like those problems will be taken care of faster. I don’t know of anyone who pays dues to participate here, except Harv,(old forum joke/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif) so it is hard for me to expect Muhammad to read every post around the clock.

I do understand how seeing a post you made was edited by another member would cause concern. I would question that also. It would have been better to know in advance that another member’s name could show up as editing a post that you made. As I read it, Muhammad has explained that and it was not an attempt to be deceitful, it was a logistical and timing issue. It would have been just as easy to mark the post as edited by moderator and never let us know some members were helping out with the administrative load created by all the activity on the forum. Personally I think those he has chosen are great, and if I didn’t, hey, its Muhammad’s house and his choice who comes to the party.

MarkV

 

[looch]

First of all, this is not my idea of fun.

I have no qualms with the fact that moderators are required to make sure that the quality of content maintained on this site remains second to none.

I have absolutely no beef about who was chosen to be moderators. As I previously stated, I think we would be hard pressed to find better candidates.

From my 11 month stay here, I see this as the first time a major change to the way the site is run and maintained has been executed without any previous notice. How long ago did we realize that we needed extra moderators? What was the criteria for selecting them? Don't answer, I'm no longer interested. You see, the board wasn't involved in this decision, and this troubles me - not because the end result is not acceptable, but because there was not even a mention of it beforehand.

I glean lots of information here that applies to the betterment of my life as a tractor owner,as a web enthusiast, and as a person who embraces the rural way of life.

But make no mistake, we, the members are also responsible for making this site what it is and to take us for granted when it comes to these types of decisions, well you end up with what happened here today.

The deletion of today's posts just added to my frustration.

 

[BobT]

"take us for granted when it comes to these types of decisions"

This is an entirely false accusation against Muhammad. He has been as caring and solicitous of the members of this forum as of any I have ever experienced since being online in 1986. And, believe me, I have been on some great forums.

This is a tiny, virtually meaningless non-issue, which any reasonable person would have accepted without comment. That you continue to return to the issue, yet refuse any explanation as reasonable, and instead escalate the issue, and "invent" additional offenses supposedly commited by Muhammad against members, is disingenous at best.

No, I don't think Muhammad is perfect, but your accusations cast him and his intentions in a particularly mean and unkind light, which I think is not only an utterly false potrayal of Muhammad, but is fairly categorized as viscious.

As to whether Muhammad and his forum, or the users who benefit from it, deserve the real credit, well, that's one of those "chicken or the egg" debates. Obviously one would not exist without the other. Yet, as we all know Muhammad pays the full freight for the operational overhead of this forum, and has for almost 4 years. I know the costs of a forum of this sophistication and scope are in excess of $250,000, so far, and still counting.

By any canon of logic or reason he is permitted to construct the operational management of this forum according to his best decision and judgement. And for those who find this intolerable, well... the Net is a big place.

 

[TerryinMD]

Geee... what's all of the hoopla!

Having the additional moderators is a great idea. Heck, I've had a couple three replies deleted - so what. Said/did/referenced/misquoted/whatever something that needed to be removed. Whoops, guess the heat of the moment overcame better judgement - my bad.

Gee... from some of the responses, you would think that this was a paid service and not a open forum with a lot of members who think things throught before posting. Some double entendres (sp? please edit if you wish /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), some creative descriptions, an occasional cuss word - these are the things that add some color to the board.

I congratulate Muhammad in his choices - couldn't think of any better. I do not think that Mike, Harv, JMIII, or Roger will abuse their responsibilities. Just a few extra pairs of eyes to keep TBN the best forum on the Web. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Terry

 

[kevincook]

<font color=blue>No, I don't think Muhammad is perfect.....</font color=blue>

Well...just for the record I do think Muhammad is perfect....at least his site is!

Heck now that I think about it. I trust these moderators and if they would just delete all the post that I'm not interested in it would save me a ton of time reading every day. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Just trying to lighten this thread up a little bit!

 

[BKColeman]

First of all, I've been trying to keep out of this. But I think the issues have become a little muddied. I think the issue isn't against having moderators at all. I think it is more about the way the posts were deleted. Or at least that is my take on it.

Of course not everyone was reading the thread were it happened, especially in the middle of the day. But Pitbull noticed another user's post had been modified by Harv. Muhammad replied that he had added moderators. Then I asked if the list was public who were the moderators, maybe we should be nicer to them now /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif. pbenven then replied to my post. All were harmless chit-chat. But when we returned to the post, all of the messages had been deleted. It kind of felt like we were getting a slap on the wrist at the time for discussing it, and I admit I was upset too, as the posts were all very good natured. But that all happened before/while Muhammad was starting this thread. I don't believe his intention was to slap our wrists, just to make a formal announcement, but it still felt very "un-TBN like".

My only comment about the rest of the thread is the line where people keeps mentioning the moderators will only edit things pertaining to formatting. The first and only other time before today I had seen a moderator modify another user's post was when a post's subject line was changed. This occurred in the Attachments forum a few days ago. This is pushing the limits of formatting issues and close to changing content. Although I do understand why the moderator did it and he did explain himself.

So I decided to post here not to stir up any trouble, but just to say I understand why pbenven and pitbull feel the way they do, and also that Gordon's worries about changing content might not be entirely unfounded.

I do agree with all the others that this is Muhammad's house and we all play gladly by his rules. I think this is the best place on the internet and this small issue doesn't make it feel at all less 'homey'. Muhammad still has my full support with how he wants to run this board.

Ok, I will quit talking now...

--Brad