Newbie needs a Tractor

[Rara Avis]

OK, let's see, gonna try to be specific in stating my needs. Own 13 wooded acres with a small house, small barn (needs repair) and a small woodshop (falling down).

I need a machine that can pull a few 20 - 30 inch, 16 ft long white pine to a central spot. Also have a half acre pond that is silting over and a dam that needs repair. Will build a deck and expand wood shop so digging some holes for concrete footings a plus. Pushing some snow aside would speed things up as well.

Appreciate any suggestions, tips. Would love to find something used since money is becoming a pressing issue. I'm a city slicker spending more and more time in the country.

Thanks

An alternative to avoid getting too large a tractor...

CNN - Horse logging limits damage to forests - Apr. 8, 1996

It is easier for people to get into animal-powered logging. Startup costs for a horse-logging operation, according to the University of Kentucky, is about $10,000 versus $100,000 for a conventional logging operation.

http://healingharvestforestfoundation.org/news/Bay Journal.pdf

 

[Trace33]

An alternative to avoid getting too large a tractor...

CNN - Horse logging limits damage to forests - Apr. 8, 1996

It is easier for people to get into animal-powered logging. Startup costs for a horse-logging operation, according to the University of Kentucky, is about $10,000 versus $100,000 for a conventional logging operation.

http://healingharvestforestfoundation.org/news/Bay Journal.pdf

Paul I actually thought about this once but getting a horse would require a barn and feed and this one little sentence from your story kinda turned me off.
"Horses do have a downside -- they kick. That's why David Matherson's jaw is wired shut. It's healing after a run-in with his big Percheron, Tom"

And they ain't all that good at diggin.

 

[Trace33]

With that size wooded lot.. sounds like anything from SCUT up to small CUT.. IE.. 12-25hp.. perhaps 4wd to help pulling logs.. or in the winter.. loader or not, your choice.

check your dealers.. you may find a good deal on a low hour return... trade/ etc.. If yuo are mechanically inclined enough to handle a used unit.. you could also consider a 2nd or 3rd brand.. like a chinese tractor... can get their scut/small cut's for pretty cheap new... just got to babysit them thru the infant mortality stage ...

Soundguy

Not sure that would work Soundguy. I have a 23hp 4WD Honda ATV that will pull a good size log, traction is a big problem. Some of these white pines are 30 inch in diamter.
I just spin my wheels all four of em.

 

[Trace33]

Trace,
for what you're wanting to do I'd suggest 30-40 HP with backhoe.
I don't have a Kioti, but there are plenty of folks on the Kioti forum here who can give you an idea of what size you would need to do all you want at a price enough lower than a comparable sized NH or Kubota to almost pay for the back hoe - if $$ are a consideration.
You may also want to cruise the NH & Kubota forums to see what they have to say about the real world capabilities of their respective machines as comparison.

I bought my tractor as a "last year's demo model" and saved about $4k, which is also right in the range "gently used" machines can be found.

CAT1 PTO is going to be standard on anything in this size range - I suspect what you really wanted to say was "hydraulic remotes" which is where a backhoe would get it's power. (unless it's got it's own self contained hydraulic system) They also make PTO powered log splitters, in case that would come in handy.

At a minimum what you will probably want to look at is 4 wheel drive (MFWD), shuttle shift (lets you shift from forwards to reverse on the column without changing any other gears -- GOOD thing for loader work!) or Hydrostat ("auto" tranny for tractors - 1 pedal for forward or reverse, but you lose some PTO HP - a lot of guys really like these, I'm not one of them) and a box blade 6"-12" wider than your back tires.
You will also want a couple of grade 70 "trucker" chains 14'-25' long, a tool box to mount to the back of the tractor (There's usually a flat spot behind the seat and above the PTO), and a handful of tools to put in it. (a couple pry bars, 2-3 pound hammer, couple of crescent wrenches, etc...)

Good luck and happy shopping!

Thanks for the info Erik. That's exactly the size I'm leaning to 30-40, MFWD.

I'm still not that saavy on shuttle shift or hydro and you also brought up hydraulic remotes. I take it these are the connectors for the flow of hydraulic oil. Is there an ideal number a tractor should have? Is this an add on item on a new tractor. Assuming I buy used am I limited to what is built into the tractor?

Anyway I found a 03 NH TC45 for sale on fastline.com with these features - 40 - 44 HP,HYDRO,R4 TIRES,FOLDING ROPS,MFWD,FRT 5.50X16 65%,RR 13.6X24 65%,FRONT END LOADER,1 REAR SCV,OVERALL COND-V.GOOD,BACK HOE ATTACHEDFuel TypeAxle - all for 19500

Not sure what 1 REAR SCV represents.

 

[Soundguy]

Not sure that would work Soundguy. I have a 23hp 4WD Honda ATV that will pull a good size log, traction is a big problem. Some of these white pines are 30 inch in diamter.
I just spin my wheels all four of em.

Forgive my tone here.. but there is absolutely -0- comparison between a 23hp atv.. and a 23 hp tractor. ( or a 23hp lawnmower for that fact.. )

A 23hp tractor can pull a few thousand pounds of rolling load. IE.. I wouldn't expect an ATV to pull a stuck car out of a ditch.. however I have done it with a 21 hp tractor..

Besides the stall / traction effect of larger rear wheels, weight and weight ratio. most engine other than tractors use some unrealistic theoretical fantasy number that the govt' lets them get away with when they rate their engines....


soundguy

 

[kozak]

Thanks for the info Erik. That's exactly the size I'm leaning to 30-40, MFWD.

I'm still not that saavy on shuttle shift or hydro and you also brought up hydraulic remotes. I take it these are the connectors for the flow of hydraulic oil. Is there an ideal number a tractor should have? Is this an add on item on a new tractor. Assuming I buy used am I limited to what is built into the tractor?

Anyway I found a 03 NH TC45 for sale on fastline.com with these features - 40 - 44 HP,HYDRO,R4 TIRES,FOLDING ROPS,MFWD,FRT 5.50X16 65%,RR 13.6X24 65%,FRONT END LOADER,1 REAR SCV,OVERALL COND-V.GOOD,BACK HOE ATTACHEDFuel TypeAxle - all for 19500

Not sure what 1 REAR SCV represents.

Trace33,

Simply speaking, shuttle shift allows user to shift transmission from one gear to another or between forward and reverse while the tractor is moving without clutching.

A Hydro-static transmission on the other hand is almost totally automated in that no shifting is required from forward to reverse or to increase speed. You just have two pedals & an engine RPM lever that you pre-adjust for whatever maximum you currently require. One pedal controls reverse the other forward. Just like a car, the more you depress the pedal, the faster you go. So you can see that Hydro-static is far easier to use leaving the Operator to focus on the task at hand.

The hydraulic remote control valves are used to allow adjustment of rear implements connected to the 3 Point Hitch. (i.e. side to side tilt action of a box blade for example.) These remotes are normally add-ons & are not supplied as standard. The more you have (normally max of 3) the more flexible your 3PH & rear implements become. You still have up & down hydraulic control of your 3PH without any remotes so your not totally without any control & can still use implements on the back.

For a Back-hoe I would expect you would need at least one rear remote valve for hydraulic supply unless as Eric_in_Hoyt indicated the BH comes complete with its own self contained hydraulic system. What ever you do MAKE SURE you get a BH that is FRAME-MOUNTED to the tractor......NOT 3PH mounted. Potential exists to severely damage tractor if 3PH mounted.

Checked out that site you listed with TC45. I would say this would be a GREAT selection for your needs from a HP & weight perspective. Looks like the BH is a NH supply but not sure. If it is it would be frame mounted. How many hours of use on the tractor. A better unit of measure of tractor age is hours of use versus year of manufacture. If the tractor has less than a thousand hours then it has plenty of life left in it as long as it has not been abused & has been properly maintained. You would definitely want to check this tractor out in person & try it out.

Rear SCV: Rear Spool Control Valve. (Same as rear remote)


Best of Luck,


Vic

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

Trace,
some tractors (like mine) come with one rear remote from the dealer. Some 2, some none. They can generally be added. I feel one is a minimum for utility, 2 is better.
Rear remote can also be used with a hydraulic top link to adjust the tilt on a box blade without having to get out of the seat of the tractor and break out a wrench. This is likely my next addition to my setup to complement the Harbor freight Quick Hitch I just finished adapting my BB to fit.

The NH sounds like a good deal, provided it wasn't used for 4000 hours on a construction site. (that can be a lot of abuse)

65% on the tires should be a description of how much tread is left on them.
R4 tires are "industrial" tread, which gives pretty good traction but is not as hard on grass as R1 (ag tread) tires.
The TC45 will be the next size up from the 30-40HP range tractors - in car terms, my 2535 would be a compact, the TC45 would be a mid-size.
larger frame means more weight, so more traction. it also means taller, longer, wider, and bigger turning radius.

 

[WayneB]

A 23hp tractor can pull a few thousand pounds of rolling load. IE.. I wouldn't expect an ATV to pull a stuck car out of a ditch.. however I have done it with a 21 hp tractor..
soundguy

Welcome to the forum!

We use a small Kubota L-2250 4WD with a Farmi logging winch and have pulled many large trees around and up some very large hills. It isn't always the HP you have to look at, but what small scale equipment is available for the job at hand. There are several ways to skin the cat and not all require large heavy equipment.

Here is a good site with information on small scale equipment for logging.

Small-scale equipment for low-impact logging

Wayne

 

[Erik_in_Hoyt]

Wayne,
that's a good article!
I gotta make me one of those blue ox things!

I also notice they left out the other important use for the FEL when logging - it's a great way to carry all your cutting and moving implements to the job site.

 

[IslandTractor]

As you have a nearby Kioti dealer and are considering that brand, I'll give you my perspective after owning first a Kioti CK20 and now a DK40se. First, I completely agree with Soundguy that you should just forget comparing your ATV to a diesel tractor. Second, you mentioned money is an issue, as always, but it would be very helpful to have a rough budget.

Of the tasks you mention, I think I could have done any of them with the CK20 TLB (tractor loader backhoe if you haven't read the glossary yet). The only task that would have required any real planning would be pulling those big pines out of the forest. I would have probably rigged a skid of some sort (old car hood) and chained the logs to the drawbar to pull them out. If you are planning to do lots of this sort of thing then a logging winch would start to make sense. The CK20 is a pretty heavy tractor for it's size and I don't think you'd have any trouble with the rest of your tasks. A new one with backhoe and FEL will cost somewhat north of 18K. I'd definitely get the tires loaded. If you will not have lawn you could consider R1s but I'd probably go with R4s myself despite loss of traction. You could always add chains for the log skidding exercises if needed.

One step up would be a CK30. Very nice machine that is quite a bit heavier than the CK20 and therefore even better for ground engaging or pulling operations. The FEL is not much of an upgrade over the CK20 however. While I would not hesitate to tackle your tasks with the CK20, the CK30 would clearly have an even easier time dealing with the logs. Adding a backhoe would take the price into the 21K range I believe (haven't priced it recently).

I currently own a DK40se with BH. I think it is probably more tractor than you need unless you have a lot of land clearing to do. It more than doubles FEL capacity and pulling but I'd think it is too big of a safety margin on performance to justify for someone who is watching the budget carefully. Great tractor though.

If I were in your shoes I'd make a deal with your local Kioti dealer to buy a CK20 with the right to upgrade for difference in price to the CK30 if you have any real trouble with the logs. I don't think you would have trouble but that is the only task you listed where the CK30 would have a significant advantage. You could figure out if you had any trouble the first weekend you owned the CK20 so the dealer really shouldn't balk at such a proposal.

Here are a few photos of my CK20 in action vs trees etc.