NH "T"urbo "C"harged 24DA

[JSUnlimited]

Okay guys, sorry for the sidetrack.

Any opinions on this turbo?

eBay: IHI RHF3 Turbocharger Turbo for Scooter 150~300cc (item 320093608995 end time Mar-25-07 20:15:24 PDT)

I this this is the ticket. It's my understanding that it is a ball bearing turbo vs. the journal bushing type.

I'm waiting in the guy to return my email about the wastegate setting, it can't be much.

 

[mikeyd]

Looks way too small for your application. This turbo is sized for a 300cc scooter which is .3L. As I understand it the motor in your tractor is around 1.2L diesel. I do not think you will even notice a difference in power should you use this turbo. Aside from the boost you also have to take into consideration the volume of air the turbo is pushing. Think of it this way, a standard air compressor can produce 120psi and that works great for airing up a tire thru a valve stem but try filling up an air balloon with it. You should get a turbo that is sized for a 1.2L or bigger. Don't go too big or your exhaust flow won't have enough volume to spin the turbo adequately to create boost until you get to very high rpm. I would look for a turbo sized somewhere between 1 and 2 liters.

 

[dfkrug]

Wow, that is a small turbocharger!

I would be most concerned about how small the inlet and outlet
diameters are. You would not want them smaller than your
exhaust mainfold passage diameter or the exhaust pipe diameter.

Note that the seller says this turbo is good for up to a 600cc engine.
Yours is about 1000cc.....I wonder how much it restricts the
exhaust flow.

Interesting that he takes Pounds but he is in Japan.

 

[JSUnlimited]

Okay how about this one. Mikeyd and I talked about this one. This one is new and comes with all of the fittings unlike the other one which was used and had no fittings.

eBay Motors: New Mitsubishi TD025M Turbocharger Turbo Motorcycle (item 320042628056 end time Mar-26-07 00:38:49 PDT)

Here is the exact same one for sale by another seller that provided more information;

eBay Motors: Turbocharger Mitsubishi TD02 TD025M Small Turbo (item 110081511280 end time Apr-19-07 09:29:52 PDT)

It says that it good for 1-1.8L on a diesel.

Here is the info for the IHI RHF turbo from their site,
turbo_RHE-RHF

Scroll down and according to the chart, on a gas engine it's good for .5L and up. However for a diesel it appears that its good for a 1.0L to almost 2L.

Who knows?

I know I talked to a guy out in Calf. at a turbo shop and he stated that whatever turbo is rated for a gas engine, you need 1/2 the size of turbo for a diesel engine of the same displacement.

 

[mikeyd]

On the IHI turbo looks like you would be better off with either the Number 4 or 5. Looks like the TD025m would work but I have reservations. Another writer makes a very valid point about the inlets/outlets being very small on the IHI number3, I wonder if the TD025m poses the same problem. As I have stated to you before, I also don't like that the TD025m has to be oil and water cooled, just more work and something else to go wrong. I don't like the idea of capping off the water cooled part and only going with oil cooling as that is a very small turbo and it is spinning like crazy and generating a ton of heat. If the IHI does not need watercooling, or perhaps if there is another type TD025 that doesn't need it, or go the next size up, that maybe the better way to go. I like to go with the KISS principal when possible.

 

[JerryG]

Mega,
The guy that said that you need a much smaller turbo for a diesel than you do for a gas is right. If the turbo is rated for a gas engine that turns 6000 RPM and your diesel just turns 3000 RPM, then you aren't going to be into the turbo ever. It is just not going to be able to produce boost because of the slow speed or many be I should say the low amount of air being moved through it at those speeds. You also need to speak to some one that knows about the housing sizes, the size of the turbine and the size of the impellers. All of these make a difference in how the turbo responds. You might get lucky just picking one out and it would work, but I know if I did it that way given my luck, It wouldn't make any more power with the turbo than without it.

 

[mikeyd]

Mega,
The guy that said that you need a much smaller turbo for a diesel than you do for a gas is right. If the turbo is rated for a gas engine that turns 6000 RPM and your diesel just turns 3000 RPM, then you aren't going to be into the turbo ever.

I agree with smaller turbo for diesel vs. gas of same displacement, but not based on rpm as you descibe it. Typically a diesel is run at wide open throttle (WOT) for extended periods, diesel generators can run WOT for days on end. Gasoline engines are typically run at WOT for short bursts. If a gasoline engine is run at a constant rate, like in a generator, its not at a 6000 rpm redline, it is governed much lower. Try putting your foot to the floor in a gas pick up truck while in park and count the minutes until it implodes. On the other hand I can get on my kubota diesel tractor and run it WOT(2600 rpm) all day long with no problems. In the Kubota engine manual it shows the turbocharged versions of diesel engines making significant HP and torque gains over identical normally aspirated versions of the same motor at rpm's as low as 1000. The point is you will make boost on a diesel engine very early in the rpm range. Go by the charts provided by the turbo manufacturer, they have already done the calculations for you,select one sized for your diesel motor and have a blast.

 

[JerryG]

I think that you took what I said a different way that what I meant it. Let me try it again to make it more clear. An engine is an air pump. If a certain amount of air is required to make X amount of boost, then a certain RPM must be obtained to produce that amount of air flow. If the air flow is cut in half, the turbo must be configured differently to produce the required amount of boost given the reduced amount of flow being produced. Or if it takes 4000 RPMs on a 6000 RPM engine to produce X amount of boost the slower turning 3000 RPM engine isn't ever going to be able to produce that same amount of boost with those same turbo configurations. I just don't want to see Mega get a turbo and do all the work that is needed to set it up and then not achieve anything.

Mega,
The guy that said that you need a much smaller turbo for a diesel than you do for a gas is right. If the turbo is rated for a gas engine that turns 6000 RPM and your diesel just turns 3000 RPM, then you aren't going to be into the turbo ever.

I agree with smaller turbo for diesel vs. gas of same displacement, but not based on rpm as you descibe it. Typically a diesel is run at wide open throttle (WOT) for extended periods, diesel generators can run WOT for days on end. Gasoline engines are typically run at WOT for short bursts. If a gasoline engine is run at a constant rate, like in a generator, its not at a 6000 rpm redline, it is governed much lower. Try putting your foot to the floor in a gas pick up truck while in park and count the minutes until it implodes. On the other hand I can get on my kubota diesel tractor and run it WOT(2600 rpm) all day long with no problems. In the Kubota engine manual it shows the turbocharged versions of diesel engines making significant HP and torque gains over identical normally aspirated versions of the same motor at rpm's as low as 1000. The point is you will make boost on a diesel engine very early in the rpm range. Go by the charts provided by the turbo manufacturer, they have already done the calculations for you,select one sized for your diesel motor and have a blast.

 

[jwstewar]

I still wonder if all of this is worth it. I think he is just going to break something else on the tractor. We know with the hydro he is going to have to boost the pressure somehow otherwise the way it is, it is enough power to bypass. So the new power isn't going to make it to the ground unless he stresses something else. Next is PTO. I run a 60" tiller behind my TC24D. It spins it all right, but if I get a little too agressive, I can watch the temperature gauge on the engine go up and I can also feel the temp of the hydro go up. I also think I have smell the clutch getting hot. I've really had to slow my ground speed. I think with the extra power, he will just burn the clutch out of it in a heartbeat. But hey, I think it is a neat concept, just don't think it is worth destroying a 12k+ tractor.

 

[mikeyd]

Jerryg,

You make a valid point. I am simply saying to Mega that he does not need to be concerned with turbine measurements etc. as the manufacturer of the turbo he wishes to buy has already done the calculations for the end user and provided a chart with specs setting forth a range of turbo's to use for the given application. I do understand and appreciate your point, i.e. an engine spinning at 6 grand is going to produce more exhaust flow than an engine spinning at 3 grand. In my earlier posts I have suggested to Mega to be careful not to buy too large of a turbo because he will have to rev the heck out of the motor to get boost. In this case the issue is not so much that he won't get enough boost at WOT with a large turbo, but rather the issue is the time it takes the turbo to spool up to produce boost (called turbo lag). The idea is to choose a turbo small enough so it begins to produce boost early in the rpm range(minimizing turbo lag) but also large enough so that the turbo can produce a sufficient volume of boost to make it effective. My thought is that Mega can lean towards one of the larger turbo's the manufacturer recommends for his size engine because his application is for a tractor, where typically the operator is not accelerating/ decelerating like a car but rather you set the engine at or near WOT and go to work. Of course he must also take into consideration that the engine will lose rpm under load(less exhaust/less boost) even at WOT so he can't go off the charts to a turbo which is too large or he will be surging in and out of boost under load.

Using the manufacturer's specs he can choose the appropriate turbo such that the turbo will begin producing boost early on in the rpm range(say around 1000 rpm) and continue through WOT. Keep in mind at some point the turbo will create enough boost such that the wastegate will open(around 7 psi) so as not to create an overboost condition that could lead to excessive compression and engine failure.