I have GEARS so it's already OVER and I WON /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif!!! Gerard
No Guts HI gear HST
- Thread starter Doccruz
- Start date
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dbelisle
Gold Member
I have a Kioti DK-40 shuttle shift and a Mahindra 2810 HST.
They are both great tractors but,
I will take the HST any day.
Dave in NH
They are both great tractors but,
I will take the HST any day.
Dave in NH
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have a Kioti DK-40 shuttle shift and a Mahindra 2810 HST.
They are both great tractors but,
I will take the HST any day.
Dave in NH )</font>
Is your Vette an HST or GEAR?? Mine is the 4+3. I like GEARS! Gerard
They are both great tractors but,
I will take the HST any day.
Dave in NH )</font>
Is your Vette an HST or GEAR?? Mine is the 4+3. I like GEARS! Gerard
Wow.. a lot of bashing (me) since I posted last night. I don't know what warranted that.
1) John, I'd be glad for you to come up and take a look at it. Let me know if you need directions.
2) My dealer tested everything that the Kioti service manager he talked to in Wilson told him to check. He told me everything was fine. What else am I supposed to do?
3) Ever since, I've been talking to Kioti directly with not much luck.
4) I'm sorry if I have made people angry talking about the CK20HST's but I have a right to be dis-satisfied.
After discussing this with so many people, I had not even heard of ANY CK20HST that was showing proper power to the wheels. Thanks to Jon Depratt, he has actually ran the test in high range and told me that he had some that were doing quite well and even were able to go over a 6x6 in high range with the wheels touching. That is GOOD NEWS!
All I expect now is SOMEONE at Kioti or my dealer to make it right. I don't expect my dealer to do anything else unless Kioti tells him to do it. Thus the reason that I am working with them.
I'm sorry if anyone disagrees with me on this next thought. Based solely on reports on this forum, I believe the CK20HST's that are pulling VERY strongly are few and far between unless it is new ones only. It seems like MOST of them are having troubles with power to the wheels at least some level. Some not as much as others. I feel good that Jon DePratt has some that will do a 6x6 (in high range, touching it, with no momentum to help the tractor over), but I also feel that there are MANY already in owners hands or on sales lots that are not performing at that level.
Believe it or not, I still don't condemn Kioti even if that is true... <font color="red"> as long as they fix each and every one of them out there </font> that is NOT performing at that level.
I'm sorry if my opinion offends anyone.
1) John, I'd be glad for you to come up and take a look at it. Let me know if you need directions.
2) My dealer tested everything that the Kioti service manager he talked to in Wilson told him to check. He told me everything was fine. What else am I supposed to do?
3) Ever since, I've been talking to Kioti directly with not much luck.
4) I'm sorry if I have made people angry talking about the CK20HST's but I have a right to be dis-satisfied.
After discussing this with so many people, I had not even heard of ANY CK20HST that was showing proper power to the wheels. Thanks to Jon Depratt, he has actually ran the test in high range and told me that he had some that were doing quite well and even were able to go over a 6x6 in high range with the wheels touching. That is GOOD NEWS!
All I expect now is SOMEONE at Kioti or my dealer to make it right. I don't expect my dealer to do anything else unless Kioti tells him to do it. Thus the reason that I am working with them.
I'm sorry if anyone disagrees with me on this next thought. Based solely on reports on this forum, I believe the CK20HST's that are pulling VERY strongly are few and far between unless it is new ones only. It seems like MOST of them are having troubles with power to the wheels at least some level. Some not as much as others. I feel good that Jon DePratt has some that will do a 6x6 (in high range, touching it, with no momentum to help the tractor over), but I also feel that there are MANY already in owners hands or on sales lots that are not performing at that level.
Believe it or not, I still don't condemn Kioti even if that is true... <font color="red"> as long as they fix each and every one of them out there </font> that is NOT performing at that level.
I'm sorry if my opinion offends anyone.
<font color="blue"> I'm sorry if my opinion offends anyone. </font>
You by all means have the right to your own opinion.
I, too, would be extremely upset if I had any problems and didn't know what was going to come of it. I expect to get what I pay for and it seems that some of you haven't. Keep us updated on this issue as to your progress. Gerard
You by all means have the right to your own opinion.
I, too, would be extremely upset if I had any problems and didn't know what was going to come of it. I expect to get what I pay for and it seems that some of you haven't. Keep us updated on this issue as to your progress. Gerard
stanc
New member
Very interesting post. Opened up the CK20 Workshop manual, and discovered the following specs:
Engine torque 6.2kg-m @ 1800 rpm;
PTO HP = 16.5 gear transmission, 15.5 HST.
Hydrostatic Drive max output torque 6.4kgf-m;
Hydrostatic Drive max input rpm 3200, output rpm 0 - 3200rpm
Note that this is a constant torque, variable speed HST.
High range gears are 34T to 22T.
As a comparison, gear drive transmission, 3rd gear = 1 to 1 ratio before High/Low range.
High range gears are 36T to 20T.
Therefore, the HST High Range is ~ same as Third gear, High Range of gear drive. Also, only 15.5 HP available for HST.
Conclusion -- High Range with HST is equivalent to 3rd gear, High Range with gear transmission. This HST does not multiply torque at slower speed, as the gear transmission does (shifting to 2nd, or 1st).
My CK20HST, High Range over 2x4 -- yes, 4x4 -- no.
I use High Range for travel, Low Range for everything else.
Engine torque 6.2kg-m @ 1800 rpm;
PTO HP = 16.5 gear transmission, 15.5 HST.
Hydrostatic Drive max output torque 6.4kgf-m;
Hydrostatic Drive max input rpm 3200, output rpm 0 - 3200rpm
Note that this is a constant torque, variable speed HST.
High range gears are 34T to 22T.
As a comparison, gear drive transmission, 3rd gear = 1 to 1 ratio before High/Low range.
High range gears are 36T to 20T.
Therefore, the HST High Range is ~ same as Third gear, High Range of gear drive. Also, only 15.5 HP available for HST.
Conclusion -- High Range with HST is equivalent to 3rd gear, High Range with gear transmission. This HST does not multiply torque at slower speed, as the gear transmission does (shifting to 2nd, or 1st).
My CK20HST, High Range over 2x4 -- yes, 4x4 -- no.
I use High Range for travel, Low Range for everything else.
Stanc...
Mark your CK20HST up as another for "marginal" though not as bad as some, since we have reports of some of them going over a 6x6 in high range.
Unless I am interpreting your specs wrong... an unless you have more knowledge than you actually posted, then </font><font color="blue" class="small">( Hydrostatic Drive max output torque 6.4kgf-m)</font> doesn't necessarily mean a fixed torque setting to me. It implies a maximum only.
Mark your CK20HST up as another for "marginal" though not as bad as some, since we have reports of some of them going over a 6x6 in high range.
Unless I am interpreting your specs wrong... an unless you have more knowledge than you actually posted, then </font><font color="blue" class="small">( Hydrostatic Drive max output torque 6.4kgf-m)</font> doesn't necessarily mean a fixed torque setting to me. It implies a maximum only.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( 1) John, I'd be glad for you to come up and take a look at it. Let me know if you need directions.)</font>
Robert, send me your address and contact information. I'll try to come up this week if it's convenient. I'm not sure what part of NC you're in. I'm sorry if my posts appeared to bash you, that was not the intention. I purely wanted to know why H.K.'s suggestions weren't carried out. I suppose it's because someone is not making the right contact within the company. In your contact with me, include your name, the serial number of the tractor and any names of people you've spoken with at Kioti. I WILL get something going for you. Actually, your posts may lead to a solution for a lot of people. If there is an inherent problem going on, and we get yours repaired, we'll be able to insist that everyone get their problem solved. Please send to mexjohn@bellsouth.net
John
Robert, send me your address and contact information. I'll try to come up this week if it's convenient. I'm not sure what part of NC you're in. I'm sorry if my posts appeared to bash you, that was not the intention. I purely wanted to know why H.K.'s suggestions weren't carried out. I suppose it's because someone is not making the right contact within the company. In your contact with me, include your name, the serial number of the tractor and any names of people you've spoken with at Kioti. I WILL get something going for you. Actually, your posts may lead to a solution for a lot of people. If there is an inherent problem going on, and we get yours repaired, we'll be able to insist that everyone get their problem solved. Please send to mexjohn@bellsouth.net
John
DirtHauler
Gold Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2004
- Messages
- 465
- Location
- Northern Cali ~~~ "Weed" Country
- Tractor
- " '06" Kioti CK30 2015 Mahindra 2555 shuttle 2019 Massey 1760M
Well since I'm kind of the "newbie" here, I did read thru all the Kioti posts prior to buying my CK20 ST. Now my dealer told me that I won't be happy with HST for what I wanted to use it for simply because of the fact that it didn't have enough "power" to break the tires loose when driving into a pile of dirt to get a "good' load. And no, I'm not "bashing" the HST. I got the gear drive because where I use it is in steep and some times rocky conditions, besides, shifting three grears is nothing compared to 13 all day! And as with all things, there's pros and cons! Oh and by the way, I've stalled my CK loading it on the trailer (high range, 1st and 4x4)! reason: too low RPM!
OK nuff said on that, I may have a possible cause for the lack of "pump power". The PTO pump on my new dump truck started acting up one day and continued to worse, box would go up but oooooh soooo slow no matter what the RPM's where, took to dealer, they checked pressure and said the pressure was fine and it was just a "fluke". Keep running it, maybe it will clear up. Well after two weeks of this I decided on weekend to take it apart and guess what...... I found metal shavings in the pump! like that from some threading operation that didn't get cleaned out and got into the pump. After I cleaned, reassembled and refilled the PTO, it works better then ever! (never told the dealer, let them figure it out /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)
Could this be the cause of not enough power to the Hydro? enough pressure but enough fluid moving? Can the system be reversed flushed? You did say it got a "little" better after you serviced it. Just a thought.
Hope you get 'er fixed as I really enjoy my "Lil' Kioti"
PS maybe one of these days I'll tell y'all the story of our two Cat skid-steers, one runs great the other is power-less!
OK nuff said on that, I may have a possible cause for the lack of "pump power". The PTO pump on my new dump truck started acting up one day and continued to worse, box would go up but oooooh soooo slow no matter what the RPM's where, took to dealer, they checked pressure and said the pressure was fine and it was just a "fluke". Keep running it, maybe it will clear up. Well after two weeks of this I decided on weekend to take it apart and guess what...... I found metal shavings in the pump! like that from some threading operation that didn't get cleaned out and got into the pump. After I cleaned, reassembled and refilled the PTO, it works better then ever! (never told the dealer, let them figure it out /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)
Could this be the cause of not enough power to the Hydro? enough pressure but enough fluid moving? Can the system be reversed flushed? You did say it got a "little" better after you serviced it. Just a thought.
Hope you get 'er fixed as I really enjoy my "Lil' Kioti"
PS maybe one of these days I'll tell y'all the story of our two Cat skid-steers, one runs great the other is power-less!
whenley
New member
I am almost afraid to respond to this thread . . . I dont think anybody is trying to put anybody or anything down. We just want an answer to some puzzling findings.
I had some new findings today (Mon 11/29).
I had a chance to try another CK20HST today - this time in SC (visiting for Thanksgiving). This is the second CK20H I have sampled.
The CK20H performed exactly like the other CK20H I had tried before. It had "Weak HST", would not climb 3" step in Hi (and this was a bit of a ramped step - the edge of asphalt road). Tried all pedal movements (fast, slow, stomp), all RPM. Actually STALLED the tractor engine to full quit/stop/off one time. So this tractor gets labeled 'bad' by me as was the previous I had tried in NC.
The HST just felt weak in Low or Hi. Just not snappy (seat of pants) even on level ground. Also strained in Hi range pulling up hill out of parking lot. Definite effect of load on engine pitch. I do not agree it is 'overgeared' because the top speed does not seem any different compared to other tractors of this class.
So that is TWO (of Two) CK20H's I have tried, same poor HST results. My brother (who has small KubBX1500) was very unimpressed. Not like his HST experience at all. He also witnessed the step test and was dumbfounded.
I actually don't see how it is the bypass/relief valve. Why would the engine stall if HST goes into bypass? Relief suggests redirection of HST pressure - wouldn't that 'unload' the engine and prevent stalling? Please dont flame me if I am wrong. I know very little of HST operational detail. I am just asking a question. I guess we are all waiting (rather impatiently) for the official Kioti findings.
Now for an interesting finding.
Went to a seperate Kubota dealer. 7510HST. I understand this is lighter tractor. R4 tires.
Drove tractor, very smooth operation (steering, engine, loader). HST felt good - much 'snappier' in seat of pants.
Mentioned concern of HST for my needs (which are dragging logs, pushing up brush/log piles with loader - heavy push/pull kind of work). He suggested I do some tests.
As my previous test, the Kub passed the 3" step test at any rpm (>1300rpm), any range with almost no noticable effect on engine load. Just drove up it like there was no step at all. Just like my previous test on a different 7510.
NOW THE NEW DATA (for me at least) -
Dealer suggested another test.
Found a vertical concrete wall (4ft high), found 2x4 to place between front of tractor frame and wall. Eased tractor straight into wall (with 2x4 protecting the front end). Tractor was in 2WD low range. 2000 rpm. Push HST pedal, spins rears no problem at all. Put in 4WD Low Range, Push HST, spins all 4 no problem. R4s digging deep. Put in 4WD HI range, 2400rpm, Push HST pedal, spins all 4 no problem - in HI range. Really throws some dirt. I was impressed (but thats just me, no 'real' experience other that what I have described here and other threads). The engine really never strained much at all. Sure it had to work in Hi range, but it never felt anything like a full bog.
There is no doubt in my mind as to significant internal differences between CK and Kub HST. Please note, I am not intending to put down any tractor or manufacturer. I am just shopping for a 20hp compact tractor and reporting my findings. I do think Getut has a problem, I also think this problem exists in other CK20H's (two of two in my sampling). I hope Kioti responds soon and we get a resolution - because otherwise the CK seems a fine tractor and I would really like to buy one.
I had some new findings today (Mon 11/29).
I had a chance to try another CK20HST today - this time in SC (visiting for Thanksgiving). This is the second CK20H I have sampled.
The CK20H performed exactly like the other CK20H I had tried before. It had "Weak HST", would not climb 3" step in Hi (and this was a bit of a ramped step - the edge of asphalt road). Tried all pedal movements (fast, slow, stomp), all RPM. Actually STALLED the tractor engine to full quit/stop/off one time. So this tractor gets labeled 'bad' by me as was the previous I had tried in NC.
The HST just felt weak in Low or Hi. Just not snappy (seat of pants) even on level ground. Also strained in Hi range pulling up hill out of parking lot. Definite effect of load on engine pitch. I do not agree it is 'overgeared' because the top speed does not seem any different compared to other tractors of this class.
So that is TWO (of Two) CK20H's I have tried, same poor HST results. My brother (who has small KubBX1500) was very unimpressed. Not like his HST experience at all. He also witnessed the step test and was dumbfounded.
I actually don't see how it is the bypass/relief valve. Why would the engine stall if HST goes into bypass? Relief suggests redirection of HST pressure - wouldn't that 'unload' the engine and prevent stalling? Please dont flame me if I am wrong. I know very little of HST operational detail. I am just asking a question. I guess we are all waiting (rather impatiently) for the official Kioti findings.
Now for an interesting finding.
Went to a seperate Kubota dealer. 7510HST. I understand this is lighter tractor. R4 tires.
Drove tractor, very smooth operation (steering, engine, loader). HST felt good - much 'snappier' in seat of pants.
Mentioned concern of HST for my needs (which are dragging logs, pushing up brush/log piles with loader - heavy push/pull kind of work). He suggested I do some tests.
As my previous test, the Kub passed the 3" step test at any rpm (>1300rpm), any range with almost no noticable effect on engine load. Just drove up it like there was no step at all. Just like my previous test on a different 7510.
NOW THE NEW DATA (for me at least) -
Dealer suggested another test.
Found a vertical concrete wall (4ft high), found 2x4 to place between front of tractor frame and wall. Eased tractor straight into wall (with 2x4 protecting the front end). Tractor was in 2WD low range. 2000 rpm. Push HST pedal, spins rears no problem at all. Put in 4WD Low Range, Push HST, spins all 4 no problem. R4s digging deep. Put in 4WD HI range, 2400rpm, Push HST pedal, spins all 4 no problem - in HI range. Really throws some dirt. I was impressed (but thats just me, no 'real' experience other that what I have described here and other threads). The engine really never strained much at all. Sure it had to work in Hi range, but it never felt anything like a full bog.
There is no doubt in my mind as to significant internal differences between CK and Kub HST. Please note, I am not intending to put down any tractor or manufacturer. I am just shopping for a 20hp compact tractor and reporting my findings. I do think Getut has a problem, I also think this problem exists in other CK20H's (two of two in my sampling). I hope Kioti responds soon and we get a resolution - because otherwise the CK seems a fine tractor and I would really like to buy one.
