No Guts HI gear HST

Bob_Skurka · Nov 26, 2004

The HSTck20's pretty much do what they were intended for and that's about it. Simple as that. 

I suppose then the question is what is a CK20 supposed to be able to do? If I can't roll over a 2x4 piece of lumber laying flat in the driveway (which is only about 1.5" tall) then seriously what is it "intended" to do? Certainly there are 2" rocks in the woods that will stop this little tractor. And I suspect that a sprinkler head in a suburban yard would stop the tractor dead? Let's be serious about this! My TC24 climbed a 5" step with a pallet load of concrete on the back end, in high gear on Thanksgiving day, I suspect it was not intended to do that, but I it had no problem. These little tractors are intended for tasks like box blading (with a small blade) and FEL work, and there is nobody that can convince me that a 2x4 in the driveway should stop one of these tractors regardless of who made it. Getut has a real problem (and perhaps it is common in many CK20HST units?).

HI range is not limited to, nor is it intended as strickly a "road gear."

cdt80 · Nov 26, 2004

Bob,
By your logic I can put my ck30 up against your tc24 then. Your tc24 would be closer in all ratings to the ck25 than the ck20.

I do believe getut has a problem with his ck20. I took out one of the ck20's and easily drove over a 4x4 in high gear in the yard this morning. Forward and back. It didn't even hesitate!
One thing to consider, how much of this tractor is assembled before the dealer gets the tractor? Could there be differences in how the hydraulics are set up as far as pressures and hydraulic output? There seems to be major variability in the same models. Getut should check his pressures himself since this is the only way I know to truely know what HIS compact is outputting hydraulically.
I don't need to be bashed on this forum line by line. I am only trying to help understand this problem.

getut · Nov 26, 2004

CDT.. I'm just curious.. not bashing. DEFINITELY not bashing because I need all the input I can get from CK20 owners.

When you did the 4" x 4" test did you use momentum to carry you over?

The exact test that we have been using is to bring the tires up against the 2x4 or 4x4 and come to a complete stop with the tires touching it (all on conrete or pavement so the wood doesn't mash down into the ground). Then try to go over it in high range. Will it do it then?

Most of the CK20HST's, even the ones that people are satisfied with, will either just BARELY go over a 2x4, much less a 4x4 or not even go over the 2x4 at all (mine). Even the ones that will just barely go over seem to have something DRASTICALLY wrong when people are reporting Kubota's and NH's that go over 4x4's and 5" steps in similar scenarios just fine.

I don't have equipment to test the hydraulics for this, nor should I have to. And even if I did an adjustment myself, it would likely void my warranty.

Bob_Skurka · Nov 26, 2004

Bob,
By your logic I can put my ck30 up against your tc24 then. Your tc24 would be closer in all ratings to the ck25 than the ck20. 

Hmmm. . . the CK20 & the TC24 (or TC21) are physically the same size (length/width/height). The CK20 actually weighs about 300# more than the class 1 TC tractors. They have similar turning radiuses. They have similar features. The FEL's have essentially equal capacities. The only difference between the 21hp TC21 and the 24hp TC24 is the engine. For the most part the only real difference between the NH TC21 (or 24) and the CK20 is the color of the paint.

Now the CK25 is a CK30 with a smaller engine, they are on the same frame, etc. The CK30 is one of the largest and heaviest of the 30hp tractors available, very similar in size to the Kubota L3130, although the CK25/CK30's loader has a lower capacity than the Kubota 723 loader. I believe I recall the 3pt capacity of the CKs is also lower.

So that said, the CK25/CK30 tractors, being almost a couple feet longer, plus markedly wider, taller & heavier that the little class 1 machines. They bear about as much in common to the TC21/24 tractors as they do to the CK20, which is essentially nothing.

But one thing you are correct about is that the CK25 and the TC24 have similar implement sizes they can power with their PTOs, so I guess they have that in common?

As for Getut's problem. I agree that it is real. When you ran your test, did you put the piece of wood up against the stopped tractor tires and then, from a standstill, drive over it? He can drive over a piece of lumber if the tractor is already rolling when it hits the lumber.

lcisled · Nov 26, 2004

Ok, maybe Bob hit it on the head. Could it be the extra 300# on the Ck20?

What will a 20 hp tractor do?

Mow my yard with the MMM on the high side, and drive out of the ditch when I back too far in.

Tilled my garden (top of tiller was about 2" above ground level. (low side, 4x4)-60" tiller

Pulled the TR3 rake on a 20,000 sq ft yard that was basically a gravel road. Worked it up to seed.

Load crushed rock and level driveway.

Pulled 150 bu. flare box full of firewood with log splitter on back in high range. No. Do that with the 4400 and it makes that tractor work. Low range 4x4-yes. Safe with CK20 size tractor?-no.

Jumped street curbs with the loader full of dirt on a project. Did I stop at the curb and try it from a dead stop? no. Did I get the job done? Yes. My brother has a 18 hp diesel skid steer. It would have worked that machine.

Stump grinder? No. Hook that to the 4400 and it will make that machine work. Grinder will accept 150 hp tractor.(someday cdt80 and I will compare the 4400 and the CK30)

5 ft. blower. Going to give it a try-should be fun.

Back over 2x4 or 4X4 in yard? I guess I don't need to know. ( This is not meant to be a light comment, what I meant is that my tractor does what I need it to do.)

I do not think that any of the attachments that I use are recommended for a CK20 or any 20 horse tractor. Would not be able to do them with a lawn mower.

Once again, Getut, I sincerely hope that you determine the problem with your tractor and get the chance to see what a CK20 can do.

getut · Nov 26, 2004

I'm going to try and take a day or so off from these threads after this post (unless Virgil or another dealer give great information to my question in the Opinions Wanted thread).

Here goes.. Icisled

Rhetorical question for you: Lets say you bought a TV that was supposed to pick up all the channels, but it only picks up channel 3. You only watch channel 3, so it is doing what you want. Would you take it back?

Please someone prove me wrong here, I WANT to be proven wrong!!! At this point it would give me some hope. but even among the group of owners who are satisfied with their tractors, there has not been a SINGLE report of a CK20HST performing the 2x4 test easily... or more important a 4x4 test easily. It takes a given amount of power to "break" it over the edge and get up on top. I would be very happy if I heard of a CK20HST that could step up on top of a 4x4 in high range when stopped up against it. It takes a certain amount of power to the wheels to do this. Is there ANY other similarly sized HST tractor out there besides the CK series that CANNOT do this with ease?

According to reports of people on this list, other vendors in the same horsepower range are not just slightly outperforming the CK20HST.. but GREATLY outperforming. I would say it takes a GREAT amount more power to get up on top of a 4x4 or a 5" step than to go over a 2x4. Even the people satisfied with their CK20HSTs, report that it struggles with that task when others with similar tractors are able to much more without even a struggle. This indicates a problem to me. Even if every CK20HST out there struggles with that task, I do not feel that level of weakness is acceptable. It is not something I was even allowed to test for at purchase.

Do the CK20's do work? Yes
Has it made my life easier? Yes
Do they work like they are supposed to? I don't think so.
Is the vast difference in draw bar pull acceptable even if it does most of what I need to? Not for the money I paid for it.

sweettractors · Nov 26, 2004

It is not something I was even allowed to test for at purchase.


I assume that you did not test drive the tractor before you bought it?--Ken Sweet

getut · Nov 26, 2004

Yes to test drive. No to test WORK.

I was kindly asked not to open the throttle up until after break in.

I realize the conflict of interest of the questions below, but if possible, answer sincerely.

Ken or any other dealer, can you help with any of the testing on the ones in your yard? If so, do you feel they are up to par compared to ANYTHING else out there in the same range (only in regards to draw bar pull)? Edit: Oh or even as compared to the gear model of the CK20.

Ok.. done for today... see you guys tomorrow, I'm taking a break until then. I'm tired of thinking about all this.

Thanks dealers in advance for any reply or insight you can offer, even if its not what I want to hear. If you feel there is a problem, even slight.. what remedy do I have?

depratt_equip · Nov 26, 2004

( but even among the group of owners who are satisfied with their tractors, there has not been a SINGLE report of a CK20HST performing the 2x4 test easily... or more important a 4x4 test easily.)

As my post above said, I had no problems with the units that I tested on my lot with the 2x4 and 4x4. I even drove up a pretty steep bank/hill on the back side of my lot all in HI range 2wd.

The kubota tractor that we worked on time BX20 HST struggled to crawl itself up the and onto the trailer when the customer was loading it. He had to put it in 4wd. My CK20's walk right up them. I really think this problem on your unit is an isolated case.

Bob_Skurka · Nov 26, 2004

Just playing devils advocate here, but let me point this out. . .


It is not really in the best interest of Kioti to admit that the HST is weak (if in fact it is) or possibly stated differently that the HIGH range is geared too HIGH because admitting that could result in loss of sales, especially if the units are performing as they are designed to perform within the design tolerances.