I didnt realize such a sore spot existed about the HST. I originally purchased the gear model because the dealer stated it had a live PTO. But it didnt and he substituted it with a HST model. I have a 54 inch snowblower so live is a must. I am having all the HST problems that GETUT is having. I know how he feels. My Koiti dealer is primarily a snowmobile dealer. If I want any real HST service I wouldnt know where to go. This should be a recall, or modification fix by Kioti. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
No Guts HI gear HST
- Thread starter Doccruz
- Start date
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RedDog
Platinum Member
Wow!! A whole lot of reading since this morning. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
The stories about not going over a curb or climb a small hill reminded me of what we did a few years ago with our full size trucks. Actually it was more than a few years ago,,, before we all got married!! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
We would put our (bad 4x4 trucks) up against a curb and try to go over it in 2wd. NONE of them would. They would just spin,,,, but if you would let it coast back a inch or two they would go over. Never would go over with the tire touching the curb.
I just thought I would share this experience in this thread.
Later, RedDog
The stories about not going over a curb or climb a small hill reminded me of what we did a few years ago with our full size trucks. Actually it was more than a few years ago,,, before we all got married!! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
We would put our (bad 4x4 trucks) up against a curb and try to go over it in 2wd. NONE of them would. They would just spin,,,, but if you would let it coast back a inch or two they would go over. Never would go over with the tire touching the curb.
I just thought I would share this experience in this thread.
Later, RedDog
First of all getut and doccruz, it is deeply disappointing what you are experiencing and I certainly hope that you get the problems figured out. In my family, we bought 4 CK20HSTs at the same time. My dad, my 2 brothers and I. We also have 2-4400 JDs (gear) and a 4600 JD (gear). My older brother was disappointed that he could not fill the loader with dirt or spin the tires, so he bought a CK30HST. Based on how he talks, he is extremely happy with this machine and says as far as power goes, he would put it up against the 4400s- which should be slightly larger. As for me, I use a 60" tiller, TR3 landscape rake, and MMM on my CK20. I have 150+ hrs that I have put on this summer. I can mow in high range. I cannot pull the tiller or the rake without having the tractor in 4x4, I lose traction. I can spin the tires and fill the bucket into a crushed rock pile that I use for my drive. I believe the tractor has gotten more power the more hours that I have put on it. I can stop the tractor with the rake (floating box blade, 5 scarifying teeth, and finish rake all in one) in hard compacted ground. I would not be happy if I had the experiences that you have had. I am not going to try and explain what is wrong with your tractors. Maybe my brother had the same problem and that was what made him so unhappy. What you have written is not the performance of my tractor and I believe not all of the Ck20s. I hope that Kioti addresses your concerns and you get the opportunity to see what they really can do.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Maybe my brother had the same problem and that was what made him so unhappy.)</font>
Maybe you can ask your brother if he had the same experience with his and relay his answer to the folks here. Gerard.
Maybe you can ask your brother if he had the same experience with his and relay his answer to the folks here. Gerard.
For those of us that actually have the problems with our HST units, I see 3 possible outcomes and the numbers of people affected are the determining factors. I think only 2 of the situations will get the problem resolved for us.
1) Only a very few people have the problem. It will be a hassle to prove it, but once sufficiently proven to Kioti, they will most likely come through for us.
2) An extremely large percentage of the CK20HST's have the problem. Kioti (or any other company) would deny the existence of the problem until it reaches a critical mass and a recall is ordered.
3) This is the bad one. A moderate number of CK20HST's are affected... enough to be a financial headache for them if they were to admit the problem and fix it, but not enough to reach "critical mass" of unsatisfied customers that actually force them to admit the problem..
I guess at this point the big thing is for us to <font color="red">quantify </font> the problem. Measure draw bar pulling force to the point of pop off in high and low range in different tractors. Preferable at least 3 thought to be affected and at least 3 thought not to be affected.
<font color="blue">Does anyone have any idea how to do this???
</font>
1) Only a very few people have the problem. It will be a hassle to prove it, but once sufficiently proven to Kioti, they will most likely come through for us.
2) An extremely large percentage of the CK20HST's have the problem. Kioti (or any other company) would deny the existence of the problem until it reaches a critical mass and a recall is ordered.
3) This is the bad one. A moderate number of CK20HST's are affected... enough to be a financial headache for them if they were to admit the problem and fix it, but not enough to reach "critical mass" of unsatisfied customers that actually force them to admit the problem..
I guess at this point the big thing is for us to <font color="red">quantify </font> the problem. Measure draw bar pulling force to the point of pop off in high and low range in different tractors. Preferable at least 3 thought to be affected and at least 3 thought not to be affected.
<font color="blue">Does anyone have any idea how to do this???
</font>
If you would ask him, he would tell you that all of the CK20's are underpowered. He sold the tractor and the new owner has a snowblower, box blade, tiller, and of course a FEL. Based on what he tells me, they absolutely love it. I have operated the other 2 CK20s and I would say that there are differences in the power. However slight they may be, to me they are noticable. Now you will have to take that with a grain of salt as I am proud of my tractor. I truly feel that my tractor will handle my 5ft. two stage snowblower that I have normally put on my 4400. In deep snow, it will make that tractor work. I figure I will give it a try (I can always back off the HST pedal). If it doesn't work, I will put it back on the 4400. There must be something wrong with the tractors talked about on this thread, because I am impressed with the power of this 20hp tractor.
Bob_Skurka
Super Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2003
- Messages
- 7,615
Getut wrote: <font color="red"> I guess at this point the big thing is for us to quantify the problem. Measure draw bar pulling force to the point of pop off in high and low range in different tractors. Preferable at least 3 thought to be affected and at least 3 thought not to be affected.
Does anyone have any idea how to do this???
</font>
Getut, I'm not sure if this will give you what you want, but it seems to me that bolts are "graded" to known strengths. Could you take a very heavy duty tow strap, chain, or cable, SECURE it around a very large tree and then hook the other end up to a "grade 2" bolt that is driven through the hitch on the tractor (I am assuming there is a hitch point below the PTO). Slowly pull against the chain/strap until the bolt breaks. . . then insert a "grade 3" bolt and do it again. Gradually increase the grade of the bolt until the tractor can no longer break the bolt. Do it again to confirm the result. Look up the shear strength of the bolts that broke and that will give you an idea.
Be careful to S-L-O-W-L-Y increase the tension against the bolt so you do not expose it to shock or impact as that could prematurely snap the bolt.
Be careful to use a chain/strap/cable that is STRONGER than the bolts! You don't want to snap the chain/strap/cable and have that come flying at your head!
It is also a test that should be easily duplicated just about anywhere in the country by just about anyone with a CK20 HST.
Consider the ground condition because that will have to be duplicated as well. If you test on dry grass, then everyone else would need to do that so the traction could be roughly equivalent. If you test on asphalt, then everyone else would have to do that.
Also consider the tires on your machine. If you have R4 tires, then everyone else who duplicates the test would also have to have R4 tires to make the test roughly equivalent.
I would also suggest you buy "brand name" bolts at a national chain hardware store so that everyone else who wanted to try this test could get the same length and same grade bolts manufacturered by the same company.
Icislet wrote: <font color="red"> I have operated the other 2 CK20s and I would say that there are differences in the power. However slight they may be, to me they are noticable. </font>
Does anyone else find this very troubling? Here is an owner with experience on 3 different CK20HST units and he notices power differences? I would think they should be so similar that any differences in power would be un-noticable.
Does anyone have any idea how to do this???
</font>
Getut, I'm not sure if this will give you what you want, but it seems to me that bolts are "graded" to known strengths. Could you take a very heavy duty tow strap, chain, or cable, SECURE it around a very large tree and then hook the other end up to a "grade 2" bolt that is driven through the hitch on the tractor (I am assuming there is a hitch point below the PTO). Slowly pull against the chain/strap until the bolt breaks. . . then insert a "grade 3" bolt and do it again. Gradually increase the grade of the bolt until the tractor can no longer break the bolt. Do it again to confirm the result. Look up the shear strength of the bolts that broke and that will give you an idea.
Be careful to S-L-O-W-L-Y increase the tension against the bolt so you do not expose it to shock or impact as that could prematurely snap the bolt.
Be careful to use a chain/strap/cable that is STRONGER than the bolts! You don't want to snap the chain/strap/cable and have that come flying at your head!
It is also a test that should be easily duplicated just about anywhere in the country by just about anyone with a CK20 HST.
Consider the ground condition because that will have to be duplicated as well. If you test on dry grass, then everyone else would need to do that so the traction could be roughly equivalent. If you test on asphalt, then everyone else would have to do that.
Also consider the tires on your machine. If you have R4 tires, then everyone else who duplicates the test would also have to have R4 tires to make the test roughly equivalent.
I would also suggest you buy "brand name" bolts at a national chain hardware store so that everyone else who wanted to try this test could get the same length and same grade bolts manufacturered by the same company.
Icislet wrote: <font color="red"> I have operated the other 2 CK20s and I would say that there are differences in the power. However slight they may be, to me they are noticable. </font>
Does anyone else find this very troubling? Here is an owner with experience on 3 different CK20HST units and he notices power differences? I would think they should be so similar that any differences in power would be un-noticable.
pilonidal
Silver Member
Ya, there should be no difference at alllllllllll. They look the same, they should have the same power. If all the parts are interchangable then they should all run/feel/pull the same.
I don't think my tractor could shear even a 1/4" grade 2 bolt. Shear strength is pretty stout. Unless you are talking about tensile strength against the threads.
I was thinking more along the lines of weights on a pulley system hooked to the tractor but you're right, doing it my way would take much more time and effort to set up although it would likely be more accurate.
As for your traction remarks, I disagree... traction is irrelevant as long as the tires don't slip... so as long the tractor being tested is on a material that causes the pop off to pop off before the tires start slipping then the test has been performed correctly.
On the tire issue, I agree 100%. Different diameter tires can make the same vehicle pull more of less hard. For a given rear axle torque, the tire diameter is in effect an inverse lever. Longer lever (more tire diameter) = less draw bar pulling force. Shorter lever (less tire diameter) = more draw bar pulling force. I have never tested, but when traction great, say on concrete, I suspect that even tire pressure changes the diameter of a tire enough to make a pretty measurable difference in draw bar pulling force.
Based on the reports here, I don't see how anyone can own a CK20 and NOT see what I am seeing if it is there. This leads me to believe that my tractor IS in fact different. I bet the draw bar pulling force before the pop off point is reached is in the order of hundreds of pounds. Quantifying this is the goal. The downside, is that there is no incentive for anyone with a properly functioning tractor to go through the motions of measuring it.
<font color="blue"> Edit: Bob, I was thinking about the bolt thing then I started laughing... I made a post a long time back about some slight damage I had to my fuel tank. In my infinite wisdom, I mashed the tank up closer to the seat back with an implement. To get it back to where it was supposed to be, I strapped the tank to a tree and drove off from it. My tractor would just BARELY pull hard enough yank the tank back into place. It is held in place by a couple bolts through sheet metal and two 1/2" steel tubes going up the side of the tank.
heheheh.. shear a bolt with my tractor... thats funny. </font>
I was thinking more along the lines of weights on a pulley system hooked to the tractor but you're right, doing it my way would take much more time and effort to set up although it would likely be more accurate.
As for your traction remarks, I disagree... traction is irrelevant as long as the tires don't slip... so as long the tractor being tested is on a material that causes the pop off to pop off before the tires start slipping then the test has been performed correctly.
On the tire issue, I agree 100%. Different diameter tires can make the same vehicle pull more of less hard. For a given rear axle torque, the tire diameter is in effect an inverse lever. Longer lever (more tire diameter) = less draw bar pulling force. Shorter lever (less tire diameter) = more draw bar pulling force. I have never tested, but when traction great, say on concrete, I suspect that even tire pressure changes the diameter of a tire enough to make a pretty measurable difference in draw bar pulling force.
Based on the reports here, I don't see how anyone can own a CK20 and NOT see what I am seeing if it is there. This leads me to believe that my tractor IS in fact different. I bet the draw bar pulling force before the pop off point is reached is in the order of hundreds of pounds. Quantifying this is the goal. The downside, is that there is no incentive for anyone with a properly functioning tractor to go through the motions of measuring it.
<font color="blue"> Edit: Bob, I was thinking about the bolt thing then I started laughing... I made a post a long time back about some slight damage I had to my fuel tank. In my infinite wisdom, I mashed the tank up closer to the seat back with an implement. To get it back to where it was supposed to be, I strapped the tank to a tree and drove off from it. My tractor would just BARELY pull hard enough yank the tank back into place. It is held in place by a couple bolts through sheet metal and two 1/2" steel tubes going up the side of the tank.
heheheh.. shear a bolt with my tractor... thats funny. </font>
