No Standard Transmissions

[PhilNH5]

I am in the process of trying to buy a truck. I currently have an extended cab mazda B2300. Small but it servves it's purpose. Only drawback is it is 2WD and winter driving is hairy - even with the bed filled with firewood. So we are looking to get a 4wd 4 door truck but don't need the full size pickup. Explorer Sport trac and Nissan Frontier have a very tiny bed. That leaves us with the Dakota Quad Cab. Mid size PU and still a decent bed for our needs.

Now in looking at all the above models it struck me as odd that we saw hardly any standard transmissions. In fact no Sport trac or Frontier sticks at all. Fro the Dakota we visited 4 dealers each with at least 15 Dakota Quad cabs 4x4. Only 1 of those >60 trucks had a stick. Why is that??

We are trying to buy the one with the stick. Dealer and internet seearches show it to be 1 of 3 in NE area. Amazing. Anyway the dealer feels it has a rare and therefore expensive truck on his lot. I am trying to convince him he has a lemon as obviously no one in NE wants a stick. Therefore he should negotiate more.
We are still haggling.

Current truck inspection expires soon. Thanks to the cat converter (never wore one of those out before) I don't want to pay to pass the inspection. So I am trying to buy off the lot. But I am still puzzled that there are no sticks. Am I that much of a dinosaur?

Phil

 

[Mrwurm]

Phil, you are not a dinosaur. You are simply one of those few people who actually knows what they want and are willing to keep looking till they find it. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[hazmat]

<font color=blue>Am I that much of a dinosaur?</font color=blue>

Yup! Welcome to the world of sport utility trucks. I own an F150 Supercrew & love it. Manual transmission is not an option (I would have liked one too). Seems that most of the optioned out trucks (A/C power windows upgraded this & that etc.) are selling with an AUTO transmission. The truck manufacturers put two & two together and get 4 (that's 4 speed automatic/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif). I am surprised that Dodge even offers the manual in the quad cab.

I found that if a manual tranny is to be found --several dealers didn't have one on the lot-- it is on a bare bones work truck even those were rare. You'd have to order it custom if you wanted any options. I was told by a couple of salemen that the auto is prefered for snowplowing & thus manual trannies are even more scarce in New England.

As far as negotiating with the dealer. Find out what the invoice is online (<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.edmunds.com>Edmunds.com </A>is my favorite) and offer $500 over invoice (the dealer will make a profit of more than $500 because of holdbacks etc.). Be sure to include any applicable rebates to your advantage, IE if there is $1,00 cash back, you should pay $500 UNDER invoice.

I've found that if you go in there and say something like "I will sign the papers right now if you ge me this price".

A trade in sometimes complicates the issue. what you need to do is calculate how much you want to pay + your trade. Ask for the trade in value of your old truck seperate & then calculate the price of the new truck based on that.

IE your target on the new truck is $20,000, you expect $5,000 for your trade (please be reasonable here) thus you give your truck + $15,000. If the dealer offers $4,000 for your trade, you say OK, if the new truck is $19,000. Also, sometimes the dealers inflate the value of your trade say $7,000, then you have to give a little on the new truck price, $22,000.

Remember it isn't a truck, its a SUT/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[RobS]

We can be dinosaurs together Phil. I bought an Explorer several years ago and had to order it to get the stick and manual locking hubs (yes, I'm the brontosaurus of the dinosaur world). Same with my current truck (97 F250HD 4X4 Crew Cab 5 spd manual locking hubs). A couple of years ago we bought a minivan, out of necessity. First automatic either my wife or I have owned. Can't stand it, but there isn't a single minivan available in the US with a stick. Not even the VW! Such a shame. In Europe you can get a Chrylser minivan with a nifty little turbo-diesel engine and a 5 speed manual transmission.

From the manufacturers point of view it just doesn't make financial sense to design, tool and certify a stick where the vast majority of buyers are going for the automatic.

Hang in there, you'll be shifting soon /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[bgott]

It's time for the 2003s to come out. If this is a 2002 he ought to be begging you to take it. Go home and wait for the phone call.

 

[Tractors4u]

Now Nissan offers their crew cab in a long bed. It's a good looking truck too.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

The hot yuppie babe buyers have pretty much eliminated manual transmissions and manual hubs from the inventory, and no studmuffin worth his hairdoo is going to drive a stick cause he can't let his babe dujour drive his truck as the final step in his plan to get her in the bed.
The reality is that most of these so called trucks do not have a driveline sufficient to withstand a manual transmission. In defense of automatics, maintinence costs are lower on a slushbucket driven 4x4 than they are on a stick. Slushbuckets are one he!! of a lot better pushing snow too, even in a 10 wheeler.
As far as 2wd -v- 4x4 is concerned for every day driving, I still favor 2wd. A 1000-20 tire in the bed that has been filled with water gives me all the traction I need, and I can and do usually go places the 4x4 monkeys can't get. Every truckstop in America had a supply of free tires available for filling with water, and that beats the cost of 4x4.

 

[RanchMan]

PhilNH5 -

<font color=blue>So we are looking to get a 4wd 4 door truck but don't need the full size pickup. Explorer Sport trac and Nissan Frontier have a very tiny bed. That leaves us with the Dakota Quad Cab.</font color=blue>

On the Dodge website they have a handy tool to compare their trucks to the stats of others ("Compare Dakota" on the left side of the link I pasted below).

Anyway, I took the liberty of doing a little comparison of the Dakota Quad-cab to both the Nissan and Toyota. If you already have your heart set on a Dodge, then this won't matter much, but thought I'd go ahead and point out a couple of things.

Instead of citing all the numbers, (too lengthy - you can check 'em out if you want the specifics), the Tacoma's bed (double-cab) is about 2" shorter and 1.5" less in total width. Not sure if this still would make it too small for your use, but something to consider I suppose. Also, not sure if you looked in to it, but Nissan apparently makes a crew-cab long-bed that is about 11" longer and almost the same width as the Dodge. The "imports" seem to have less room between the wheel wells though.

Anyway, just thought I'd post this so you could compare a little more if you wanted to. Regardless, it sounds like you may be looking at either driving a bit to get your new ride or doing the special order thing. Ahh - such is life... /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif

Oh, BTW, I bet you'll find the 4x4 aspect a VERY helpful feature. I know I do!/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.dodge.com/dakota/power/towing_payload.html?tsrc=dakota&tgrp=promo3&tname=dakota_towing_payload#>Dodge Dakota Comparison - left side of screen under "toolbox"</A>

 

[DAP]

You should have no problem finding a standard shift, 4WD, standard cab and about 250,000 miles if you look at:

1998-2003 Toyota Tacomas.

 

[dmccarty]

Phil,

Part of the problem is supply and demand. I think the dealers
order the autos since THEY can't drive a stick. And since
anyone can drive an auto why bring a stick on the lot? The
stick will have a smaller market.

When I bought my truck I checked all the online inventories for
a couple hundred miles in every direction and could not find
a stick the way I wanted. I DID luck into one though. I think
it was an ordered truck and the deal fall through. I got into
a argument with the Sales Manager about sticks and he said
that nobody wanted them, they could not sell them, yada
yada yada. As I was driving off the lot he ran up to me and
told me it was a good thing that I had bought the truck since
there was another guy overthere that wanted a stick....

Hmmmm....

I think people want the stick, can't find them so they settle
for an auto. Given the auto cost more, the dealer is happier.

I had the same problem when I bought my last truck. Looked
all over the place for six months to find a truck.

I am glad I got the stick. I really prefer telling the tranny
what to do and when.

Good Luck,
Dan McCarty

 

[RobS]

<font color=blue>I really prefer telling the tranny
what to do and when. </font color=blue>

My sentiments exactly Dan /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[patrickg]

Sticks are more macho! Hauling a load, starting up a hill with a load, driving on a slick surface, and about a jillion other truck things are easier or better or both with an automagic tranny. If you drive long distances with little start and stop, don't get off the highway, don't drive in poor traction situations, or will go crazy if your hands don't have something to do, then get a stick. I come down hard on manual tranny for good reason. It isn't that I don't like them, I do. It isn't that I can't use them, I can. I can drive a stick (with a light load) from point A to point B (with little or no stop and go traffic) without using the clutch(yes yo can stop and start the vehicle without a clutch, it just isn't real good for thte machine). I did it a couple times to prove a point/win a bet.

Lots of guys (and some women) think they are somehow more in tune with the inner spirit of driving if they get to do what an automatic can do for them, usually better. It is often an image thing. Fangio, Craig Breedlove, and a host of big name old line drivers used sticks because that is what worked. A lot of good race cars these days aren't using standard manual transmissions. I'm sure the manual crank started cars had a folowing too when all the wimps were going to electric start. Real pilots fly planes without enclosed cockpits and "prop" the engine to start it.

Manual hubs for 4wd are a rare treat also. I especially like the part where the reason you need to engage 4wd is because you are stuck in the mud. Get out of your nicely carpeted and upholstered cab in your nice clothes and shoes to slip around in the mud to engage the hubs and one of them is always a little sticky and requires you to get back in to "jog her a bit" and then get out in the mud again to try again to get the second hub engaged. Yeah, an excuse to play in the mud and track it in your vehicle, what sport, how macho, "but honey, a man has to do what a man has to do".

The original "good" turn signals didn't self cancel and therefore didn't turn themselves off if you turn the wheel back a ways forcing you to hit the switch again to start up the flashers again to keep signaling your intentions. I wonder what it would cost to special order a vehicle without those annoying self canceling flashers? Then there are those annoying automatically darkening rear view mirrors that reduce the strength of the light in your eyes from cars behind you. They should have a manual control. Cars used to have the spark advance control for the driver to set. Nowadays you have to settle for whatever some stupid computer gives you. Surely knowlegeable drivers would want to set the advance manually. And on and on and on. Gotta quit now, both my tongue and cheek are getting sore.

Patrick

 

[jwstewar]

I agree with the one about the lock-outs on the 4wd. I've always prefered self-locking hubs. Had a cousin just buy a new Ford F350 and I made a comment about the lock-outs on the front. His reply "The dealer said most of the new 350s come with them. Guys want a real truck with lock-outs.", but the ironic part that he also told him. The truck was smart enough to disengage the hubs in 2wd and also engage the hubs in 4wd regardless of where the manual switch was on the hub. So what does it do?

 

[Gomez]

And the real farmers use horses, not them thar iron contraptions! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[cowboydoc]

If you're talking about just regular driving then I agree with you Patrick. I like an automatic in my cars.

However if you are talking about towing then you're out in left field. First of all an automatic doesn't get near the mileage that a manual shift does. Secondly it's much safer to tow with a manual than an automatic transmission. Third the manual transmission will have a much greater lifespan than the manual transmission. Fourth you can tow much better in hills with an automatic than with a standard. Fifth you can put more horsepower and torque behind a STOCK manual than you can an automatic transmission.

Also with automatic hubs they have left me stranded more than once. There is ALOT that goes wrong with them if you are using them for off road alot. A guy is much better and safer going with the manual hubs over the automatics if you need to depend on them. Now if you are only going to use it occassionally for a little snow, ice, or mud then yes you are right the automatic locking hubs are nice.

 

[centex]

Try finding a regular cab and step side PU. They are harder to find than a standard transmission. The dealers here tried to tell me that I did not want one. I don't even let my wife tell me what I want or don't want - maybe I should say I don't even like my wife to try to tell me what I want.

 

[budman72]

Interesting, tractors are going to "automatics" (HST) just like trucks are. I looked for a gear drive JD 4200, only found one within 150 miles of where I live.

 

[cowboydoc]

Sorry but there is no such thing as the truck engaging and disengaging the hubs regardless of where the switch is. You have to switch it to either 4wd or 2wd for them to work and they are locked in that position regardless of what you do with the truck until you flip the switch to disengage position. When you flip the switch to 4wd the vacuum control engages the hubs and the transfer case. When you put the truck in 2wd the vacuum control disengages the hubs and the transfer case. The reason that they put the manual locking hubs in was because too many times the automatic lockout, electronic shift on the fly, would fail. Then guys were left stranded. The hubs are "idiot proof" though. You can't engage 4x4 low unless the truck is stopped and either in neutral or park and you have to have the truck in neutral or park to disengage them as well.

 

[patrickg]

cowboydoc

Richard, Surely you know I stired the pot to get a reaction. Still in many instances I believe in what I said. There are always exceptions. Towing in left field???? Ever launch and recover a large boat on a steep ramp? Don't you just love the smell of clutch disk in the morning? How do yo apply enough power to move the load without either spinning the wheels or smoking the clutch? Lots of equipment with manual tranny is used with success off road. In many instances the ability to add power gradually without smelling your clutch makes the automagic tranny a plus, perhaps not in off road racing but off road touring.

Properly set up an automatic tranny truck makes a swell tow machine. It isn't because RV haulers are idiots that many prefer automatic tranny. A really big 5th wheel or travel trailer being manuevered in tight quarters on the flat much less a hill makes automagic really good. Backing a really heavy trailer up a hill, starting on the hill is a great way to separate the drivers from the folks who just herd a vehicle and a great way to test for clutch chatter. Now if your idea of towing is a miniature of a long haul class 8 (18 wheeler), perhaps then for you, automatic is not a good choice. Automatic is often a good choice for towing and sometimes clearly the best choice. Again, there are exceptions.

Did you catch the post about the manual lock out hubs that worked automatically? Definitely a sop to egos. I had a high school friend who had a really neat 56 chevy 2 door convertible hard top in candy apple red. It was a 6 cyl with auto tranny. He had a fake gear shift on the tranny hump with which he simulated shifting as the tranny changed gears while he let off on the throttle to assist in the illusion. No he wasn't weird but later was in recon/Marines in Nam.

My '43 mil Jeep came originally without lockout hubs, front axle always turning while underway but prev owner installed lockouts to modernize it and reduce unneccessary wear when he towed it. My Ram 3500 has had a bit of personality change (much more torque and HP than stock) I did upgrade the torque converter and increase tranny pan capacity with a cast aluminum finned pan and added a tranny fluid cooler with thermostatic fan in order to feel more comfortable about climbing mountains at (how do I say this) brisk speeds with a considerable load. I do have a tranny temp gauge which I monitor but in nearly 70,000 fairly abusive miles (towing, off road use, and towing off road) my automatic tranny maint has been to change the fluid.


Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Gomez, Real farmers wouldn't be caught dead plowing with a horse, they do it by hand with a bent stick if not their bare hands, none of that sharpened steel for them.

Patrick