Tractor Sizing Nothing-Electronic... 4x4... cabin.. 6-cyl?

[RickB]

I’ll pass on your examples. I’ve been around this stuff all my life and am approaching 25 years of dealership experience. We have differing viewpoints.

 

[fitterski]

I’ll pass on your examples. I’ve been around this stuff all my life and am approaching 25 years of dealership experience. We have differing viewpoints.

You certainly have a right to pass on my examples and I assure you that my war is with design policy makers and not with dealers

I spent my life in technology too, and have as a result become a fan of severe constraints on anything and everything digital or in some cases even electronic or electrical. Simply put I advocate that (in the case of vehicles at least) nonmechanical services should be controlled by a single overall or perhaps additionally service-dedicated mechanical selector switch(es) which itself/themselves would in the event of failure to select fail to the first OFF mode. This/these switch/es should have 3 positions:

OFF = nonmechanical service disabled
"physically" disconnected

ADV = nonmechanical service constrained to advisory mode
ex: just showing navigation & performance data/projections

OVRD = nonmechanical service controlling but overridable by MERE normal operator control input
ex: cruise where stepping on brake OR gas trips it out, or crop-row steering where touching the wheel trips it out.

Just to provide some context for the above here's two more examples (Toyota Tundra), for the benefit of those who care to read them (as usual in any forum).

#1
The other day one of the pollution pumps that add fresh air to the exhaust failed to respond to computer demand as prescribed. The computer thereupon threw the truck into limp-home-mode. Hello? What if I was just then trying to outrun a tsunami or a volcanic plasma avalanche, or maybe a jealous husband peppering my snow-white truck with lead? It isn't the computers that are stupid, it's the *brain-dead flatliners that design* the systems!

#2
I had just bought the Tundra used when a year and a half ago my brother passed away and the whole family piled into the truck for an early morning departure on a 900km drive to arrive in time for the funeral (it is otherwise an A1 'highway" truck BTW). Half an hour out just as I was passing the engine quit, almost getting me into a head-on situation! I pulled off and tried to restart in vain. Still being very unfamiliar with the car and tight for time I did not even try to open the hood. Told my son to call a cab and go back home to get one of our other cars and meet us with it at the Toyota dealer to where I called a tow truck to bring us. Total loss 1:35. Three days later we was back and I went to said dealer to pick up the pickup. A mechanic had forgot a small piece of 1/4" vacuum hose in the air tunnel, subsequently passing revs sucked it in and it jammed the air valve just as I was releasing the pedal. That was it, hello again? So I explained to the dealer what would have happened in a mechanical situation, like in the case of my cars in the 60's and even much later. The hose piece would maybe have jammed the throttle valve and upon sensing abnormal pedal response I would quite naturally have just cycled it with a couple of short kicks, the hose would have been ingested resulting in a small blueish puff out the exhaust and we would have resumed normal operation like nothing had happened because ..nothing would have happened. Ok, argument is always possible about two-foot crow-bars in there too but let's be reasonable. The designers HAVE been flying right off the handle when it comes to scoping the computers' authority. I haven't had any similar experiences in tractors yet because except for some solenoids my Cat-426 is relatively mechanical but the horror stories told by my remaining farming neighbors abound.

 

[fitterski]

Just fishing for a general purpose 4x4 tractor that 'could' take a Cummins-5.9....
TIA

Thanks for all the wisdom, experience and comments!!!!!! I have given up on tractor 'height' as such and am casing the Case 51 series again for possible purchase.

There are several of these with the Cummins 5.9 with/without turbos and up to 150hp. Some comments on a brittish farming forum indicated that the higher hp versions pulled like tanks but I don't understand how hp would give more pull which is really torque and since most of these engines have about the same 400-450 peak torque around 1600 regardless of more hp attainable at higher revs.

More importantly I'd like to know which if not all in the 51 series are still totally free of electronics/digital-services?

Finally, i've read negative comments about the electrical system design/layout/conventionality. Not really exited by such comments but does anyone know of details about any such 'possible' an issue?

Thank you

 

[RickB]

Powershift controller and wiring harnesses NLA, have been for years.

 

[dnw64]

There are several of these with the Cummins 5.9 with/without turbos and up to 150hp. Some comments on a brittish farming forum indicated that the higher hp versions pulled like tanks but I don't understand how hp would give more pull which is really torque and since most of these engines have about the same 400-450 peak torque around 1600 regardless of more hp attainable at higher revs.

I am guessing you know this, but to refresh your memory and put some perspective on it, torque and HP are merely different ways of expressing the same thing, i.e. they are inextricably linked. Torque is available Power, HP is the ability to do Work (torque x RPM/constant).

For example, if an engine has a flat torque "curve" of, say 400 lb/ft from 1600-2600 rpm - then yes, it can do more at 2600 RPM than it can an 1600 RPM, about 60% more, in fact. The question becomes, can you use the engine at 2600 RPM? Is it economical to use it at 2600 RPM? How long will it last at 2600 RPM? Do you have the right gears to make 2600 RPM drivable? Probably some other questions as well...

 

[fitterski]

I am guessing you know this, but to refresh your memory and put some perspective on it, torque and HP are merely different ways of expressing the same thing, i.e. they are inextricably linked. Torque is available Power, HP is the ability to do Work (torque x RPM/constant).

For example, if an engine has a flat torque "curve" of, say 400 lb/ft from 1600-2600 rpm - then yes, it can do more at 2600 RPM than it can an 1600 RPM, about 60% more, in fact. The question becomes, can you use the engine at 2600 RPM? Is it economical to use it at 2600 RPM? How long will it last at 2600 RPM? Do you have the right gears to make 2600 RPM drivable? Probably some other questions as well...

I learned it like so: torque is force, power involves time. Perhaps I misunderstood 'pull like a tank' to mean pulling-force equal to or greater than traction (tug-o-war). It's more likely that pulling-power is what they meant i.e. being able to equal or better traction at a higher speed (plow-race).

I also ignored the turbos which do slightly increase torque even at low rpm.

 

[fitterski]

I only have a rough idea about such features, like on my 426 they would involve solenoids but no electronic/digital services? I don't follow, NLA.. no longer available? And I should've said 5.9's in the the 5xy0 series, these being 1990-1997 vintage [from tractordata.com]

5130 1990-1991 6cyl 99hp
6-12, four speeds (1-4) in four ranges (I-IV). Synchronized shifting between speeds and ranges with the clutch. Power shuttle shifting with column-mounted left-hand reverser lever.

5130 1990-1997 6cyl 105hp
6-12, four synchronized gears gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5140 1990-1991 6cyl Turbo 108hp
6-12 sync, four speeds (1-4) in four ranges (I-IV). Synchronized shifting between speeds and ranges with the clutch. Power shuttle shifting with column-mounted left-hand reverser lever.

5140 1990-1997 6-cyl turbo 117hp
6-12, power-shuttle, four synchronized gears gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5150 1992-1997 6-cyl turbo 132hp
16-12, 4-speed power-shift, four power shift gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5230 1992-1997 5.9 100hp
16-12 sync

5240 1992-1997 5.9 turbo 111hp
16-12 sync

5250 1992-1997 5.9 turbo 112hp
16-12 PARTIAL power-shift

I suspect that the level of electronics/digitals increased during 1990-97 so i'd be trying to sort out on that basis. Solenoids are just electrical, i don't like them but can live with them

 

[RickB]

I only have a rough idea about such features, like on my 426 they would involve solenoids but no electronic/digital services? I don't follow, NLA.. no longer available? And I should've said 5.9's in the the 5xy0 series, these being 1990-1997 vintage [from tractordata.com]

5130 1990-1991 6cyl 99hp
6-12, four speeds (1-4) in four ranges (I-IV). Synchronized shifting between speeds and ranges with the clutch. Power shuttle shifting with column-mounted left-hand reverser lever.

5130 1990-1997 6cyl 105hp
6-12, four synchronized gears gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5140 1990-1991 6cyl Turbo 108hp
6-12 sync, four speeds (1-4) in four ranges (I-IV). Synchronized shifting between speeds and ranges with the clutch. Power shuttle shifting with column-mounted left-hand reverser lever.

5140 1990-1997 6-cyl turbo 117hp
6-12, power-shuttle, four synchronized gears gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5150 1992-1997 6-cyl turbo 132hp
16-12, 4-speed power-shift, four power shift gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5230 1992-1997 5.9 100hp
16-12 sync

5240 1992-1997 5.9 turbo 111hp
16-12 sync

5250 1992-1997 5.9 turbo 112hp
16-12 PARTIAL power-shift

I suspect that the level of electronics/digitals increased during 1990-97 so i'd be trying to sort out on that basis. Solenoids are just electrical, i don't like them but can live with them

You are correct on the meaning of NLA. The powershift transmission option was extremely popular across all of the 51xx and 52xx models. And the controller is obsolete and has been . The electronics on the later models were actually less complex than the first produced but accomplished the same functions. Solenoids are easy. The stuff that controls them may not be.

 

[arlen4720]

Why not just get an older tractor like a JD4020 and leave it alone? They made crap loads of them, and parts will likely be available for years to come. Why all the talk of repowering it? The engines are not the problem of these old machines. I guess repowering one with a Cummins might be kinda fun, but that’s about it. You would be hard pressed to convince anyone in their right mind that there is an economic or reliability benefit to creating such a Frankenstein.

 

[ericm979]

Or he could buy a new Branson with mechanical fuel injection and a Cumins engine, get to work right away and use project time for something else.

 

[LouNY]

I only have a rough idea about such features, like on my 426 they would involve solenoids but no electronic/digital services? I don't follow, NLA.. no longer available? And I should've said 5.9's in the the 5xy0 series, these being 1990-1997 vintage [from tractordata.com]

5130 1990-1991 6cyl 99hp
6-12, four speeds (1-4) in four ranges (I-IV). Synchronized shifting between speeds and ranges with the clutch. Power shuttle shifting with column-mounted left-hand reverser lever.

5130 1990-1997 6cyl 105hp
6-12, four synchronized gears gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5140 1990-1991 6cyl Turbo 108hp
6-12 sync, four speeds (1-4) in four ranges (I-IV). Synchronized shifting between speeds and ranges with the clutch. Power shuttle shifting with column-mounted left-hand reverser lever.

5140 1990-1997 6-cyl turbo 117hp
6-12, power-shuttle, four synchronized gears gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5150 1992-1997 6-cyl turbo 132hp
16-12, 4-speed power-shift, four power shift gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5230 1992-1997 5.9 100hp
16-12 sync

5240 1992-1997 5.9 turbo 111hp
16-12 sync

5250 1992-1997 5.9 turbo 112hp
16-12 PARTIAL power-shift

I suspect that the level of electronics/digitals increased during 1990-97 so i'd be trying to sort out on that basis. Solenoids are just electrical, i don't like them but can live with them

I know that you are looking at a 5.9 cummins,
have you considered the 8.3 cummins it was used in the IH Magnum series,
most of them had the 18 speed power shift, little electronics,
extremly durable and reliable, good operating tractor,
the 7110's started around 130 hp then you can go up the 7240 with the same basic engine was over 200 hp.

 

[Farmer495]

I only have a rough idea about such features, like on my 426 they would involve solenoids but no electronic/digital services? I don't follow, NLA.. no longer available? And I should've said 5.9's in the the 5xy0 series, these being 1990-1997 vintage [from tractordata.com]

5130 1990-1991 6cyl 99hp
6-12, four speeds (1-4) in four ranges (I-IV). Synchronized shifting between speeds and ranges with the clutch. Power shuttle shifting with column-mounted left-hand reverser lever.

5130 1990-1997 6cyl 105hp
6-12, four synchronized gears gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5140 1990-1991 6cyl Turbo 108hp
6-12 sync, four speeds (1-4) in four ranges (I-IV). Synchronized shifting between speeds and ranges with the clutch. Power shuttle shifting with column-mounted left-hand reverser lever.

5140 1990-1997 6-cyl turbo 117hp
6-12, power-shuttle, four synchronized gears gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5150 1992-1997 6-cyl turbo 132hp
16-12, 4-speed power-shift, four power shift gears in four synchronized ranges with power shuttle.

5230 1992-1997 5.9 100hp
16-12 sync

5240 1992-1997 5.9 turbo 111hp
16-12 sync

5250 1992-1997 5.9 turbo 112hp
16-12 PARTIAL power-shift

I suspect that the level of electronics/digitals increased during 1990-97 so i'd be trying to sort out on that basis. Solenoids are just electrical, i don't like them but can live with them

You'd want the syncro (two H pattern sticks) if you want it "simpler" I am going to guess most cab 4x4 have the powershift and open station 2wd are syncro.

 

[RickB]

I worked for a CaseIH dealer back in the late 1990’s and powershift Maxxums outnumbered synchros at that dealership by about 20/1.

 

[fitterski]

The Case-IH Maxxum 51xx & 52xx are in many ways similar. Why were they two different series? Was it the 52 series that saw a revised shuttle switch? What other differences? The two series covered more or less the same years. I've talked to several farmers who had these before and they were all very satisfied.

 

[fitterski]

So what happen with the CAT motor in the TLB?

missed this one

huh?

 

[Farmer495]

The Case-IH Maxxum 51xx & 52xx are in many ways similar. Why were they two different series? Was it the 52 series that saw a revised shuttle switch? What other differences? The two series covered more or less the same years. I've talked to several farmers who had these before and they were all very satisfied.

5200 was just next newer one, I remember "N" getting added to the shuttle shift for the 5200 series, but that may have been on the late 5100 as well.

 

[fitterski]

Just fishing for a general purpose 4x4 tractor ...

I've sold my little B-275 and am looking again, and since this thread already has the right title .....

I do have an A1 Cummins 5.9 but I don't want to limit myself to that engine. Having just cased the Belarus MTZ-1221 I discover that even that make (known for it's otherwise desirable rudimentary design philosophy) is now FORCED to utilize electronic and digital engine controls etc. on export products. I simply WILL NOT HAVE ANY OF THAT, so I'll be looking at older models of the major makers.

Except for engine starting, what model-year (generally) should I consider as the last allowable year for a used 4x4 utuility tractor if I want to be able to operate without a battery or an alternator even? I'm also interested in specific major brand names with the same proviso i.e. Case, NH, Deere, Belarus, etc. but don't want t paint myself into a corner with a model for which parts are no longer available (I've read for example that the Case 5130 has a problematic fwd/rev switch that can neither be replaced NOR is a DIY suited design).

 

[Farmer495]

I've sold my little B-275 and am looking again, and since this thread already has the right title .....

I do have an A1 Cummins 5.9 but I don't want to limit myself to that engine. Having just cased the Belarus MTZ-1221 I discover that even that make (known for it's otherwise desirable rudimentary design philosophy) is now FORCED to utilize electronic and digital engine controls etc. on export products. I simply WILL NOT HAVE ANY OF THAT, so I'll be looking at older models of the major makers.

Except for engine starting, what model-year (generally) should I consider as the last allowable year for a used 4x4 utuility tractor if I want to be able to operate without a battery or an alternator even? I'm also interested in specific major brand names with the same proviso i.e. Case, NH, Deere, Belarus, etc. but don't want t paint myself into a corner with a model for which parts are no longer available (I've read for example that the Case 5130 has a problematic fwd/rev switch that can neither be replaced NOR is a DIY suited design).

What HP do you really need and do you still need it to be 6 cyl?

Most 20 year old + 4cyl cab utilities had mechanical pump, dry clutch, mechanical transmission and limited wiring.

 

[arie515]

MTZ/Belarus - there is a very limited number of "grandfathered" units with Tier 3 engines still available in USA/Canada
105, 122 and 155 hp models.
Most are purely mechanical: no DEF, no Computers, No complicated electronics. Contact the company for details info@mtzequipment.com or 1-855-246-4689

 

[DieselBound]

1st world problems...