NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review

[paulfun9]

I can see the differences of the snow moisture and how packed with ice it is.

FWIW, at the end of the following video they have a Deere blowing back banks and packed snow with the Max Twin. They use bigger fans than the MTC 3480 Max Twin I'm considering, but if you look at the fan blade design, sort of like Lorenz, the blades have teeth that I presume are for gnawing up ice.

Here is a link to the Max Twin brochure. http://agrimetal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/maxtwin-snow-blower.pdf]

After a few phone calls today I got a response from a salesman with second hand info from agrimetal. Stating that "we really don't make all the different sizes of blowers in the twin anymore, Its really a blower designed for 100HP plus machines and we are only making it in the 4386 and up size" I would have to assume that maybe just maybe my feelings about this type of set up might still have some merit even if their blower appears to be a good bit better then others like it.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

If Daedong detuned the engine, they would reasonably give it a different name and rating no?? That's what every other diesel manufacturer does. Why does Kioti list the same model and same displacement??? The DK series motor was bored and stroked to get higher output. That one was naturally aspirated. If Daedong is varying the turbocharger psi to modify output on the 3F183T, then there absolutely will be implications for duty cycle. Why is there no mention of this in any of the Daedong/Kioti literature? Is the 3F183T rated for continuous, medium or intermittent duty at 60hp??? Surely you went over this with the dealer before ordering??? Do you even know whether your engine is actually 1.8 liters? I cannot find any technical info at all that isn't rehashed news releases with limited data. Of course you will undoubtedly have thought about all of this before I did so please don't keep us in suspense any longer. How exactly do the four versions of the 3F183T differ from each other?

Regarding the cooling system, I don't care how efficient it is, it is going to require cleaning of the radiator screen to keep it efficient when mowing. If I recall the laws of physics properly, the 60hp variant will put out significantly more heat at PTO RPM than the 45hp model. It stands to reason that the 45 will therefore be more tolerant of chaff in the radiator screen and remain at normal operating temperature longer. Your mower looks brand new so perhaps you haven't experienced the pleasures of monitoring the temp gauge while trying to mow midsummer. And, remember, it was the same engineers in Korea who designed the cooling system for the DK. I assure you that cooling system works fine until the radiator screen gets clogged so I'm pretty sure the same issue will occur with the NX.

As a former master auto tech, I didn't care, because I can fix anything. I'm used to seeing one engine tuned differently for different applications as OEMs have been doing it ever since engine management systems became advanced enough to allow them to do so in the late 80s. It happens in cars and trucks, and boats, and motorcycles, and aircraft and in my own racing background, so I didn't care that it happens at Daedong. What I did do when I looked Daedong up, I found out they have a substantial engine development program in their marine division and and according to their 10K statement, poured piles of money into tractor R&D for two years leading up to the announcement of the NX series. I looked at the stability of the company from a financial perspective considering their expanding debt against their P&L in consideration of Tier 4, and informally surveyed existing customers by searching for models plus problems.

The engine runs so cold in my NX6010 that I pulled the 160 degree thermostat and found a 185 degree thermostat that fit and works. In the following video, I explain the problem of the overly efficient cooling system never warming up, or cooling itself back down.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

After a few phone calls today I got a response from a salesman with second hand info from agrimetal. Stating that "we really don't make all the different sizes of blowers in the twin anymore, Its really a blower designed for 100HP plus machines and we are only making it in the 4386 and up size" I would have to assume that maybe just maybe my feelings about this type of set up might still have some merit even if their blower appears to be a good bit better then others like it.

I just called Agrimetal's sales director, Pascal Houle, who confirmed exactly what you heard. They are only making the larger 39" fan version now, not the 33" fan version I have been looking at. The sales cat wants to drive traffic to their Max Snow line. I suspect somebody noticed the overlap in demographics and rather than be like Apple, who is more than happy to let a better product destroy older products (anybody remember the iPod?), Agrimetal simply stopped making the cool small version.

 

[IslandTractor]

LS did the same with the R4041/47... Same engine, just tuning.

FYI, the DK40se & 50se, fun what I recall, was also the same engine. The DK45se was an older, larger displacement engine.

DK40se, 45se and 50se all had the same block. The 45 had larger bore and the 50 both longer stroke and bore if I recall correctly. When you refer to the 45 having an older higher displacement motor I think you are referring to the original DK45, not the DK45se which is a sibling of the other DKse variants and has the same engine block.

If it really is just different tuning on the NX engine, wouldn't Daedong rate them differently? I'm more familiar with marine engines that use the same block and displacement with different outputs. Very different ratings on those engine variants however and presumably different projected lifespans too.

 

[IslandTractor]

Again, you're applying a general rule to a specific situation, and getting the wrong answer. Go look at the Nebraska tests for those Deere 4X20 series and you'll see your theory posted here is completely wrong. I'll give you the short version:

Deere 4720 producing 40hp PTO was using 2.8gal/hr.
Deere 4520 producing 40hp PTO was using 2.8gal/hr.
Deere 4320 producing 40hp PTO was using 2.9gal/hr.

The same engine with different turbo and injector settings used the same basic amount of fuel to put out the same amount of power. Your theory of "wasted fuel" is completely wrong in this specific situation. Make the higher horsepower engine larger, more cylinders, etc, etc and things might be different, but they aren't.

If someone tears up implements because they have "too much horsepower" they would likely tear them up with 5-15hp less, or they bought an implement that wasn't suited for the use at hand. You have to pick the implements carefully any time you're trying to maximize productivity, then you need to use them appropriately....it's not the tractor's fault if they get damaged.

Well, I'm still confused by Kioti's website info on the NX motor variants but I would agree, if indeed they are just differently tuned versions of the same engine then specific fuel consumption would be near identical.

If these four NX variant motors are truly just different electronic tuning of the identical engine, it makes Kioti's $4500 price jump from 45hp to 60hp even more absurd. It also explains why Kioti refuses to publish specs for the engines as they don't want buyers to understand that little secret. It also means that the 45hp version will be the longer lasting engine.

Hey, maybe someone could clone the chip as has happened with many automotive engines and then you could buy a NX4510 and "chip" it to 60hp for a couple hundred bucks. Keep your eyes out for eBay kits!!!:confused2:

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I remember back in the eighties, Ford contacted Yamaha to help them design a reliable top end to improve the performance of an existing engine program. At the time, Yamaha was making 180 hp per liter reliably with normal aspiration and Ford hoped for 80 hp a liter and Yamaha, said, is that all? Ford came out with the 3.0L super high output as a result.

Ford SHO V6 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, different tuning can make a huge difference when variable cam timing in available as well as fuel mapping.

Kioti does publish specs on their engines. Simply because you don't know where to look, doesn't mean Kioti is trying to hide anything.

As you can see the 60hp version not only has more horse power everywhere, it has more torque everywhere. The 60hp version is simply a more efficient engine.

Power (HP) = 1kw = 1.341 HP


Torque (Nm) = 1 newton meter = 0.737562149 foot pounds

The 45 hp version offers a maximum of 109 ft. pounds of torque.
The 60 hp version offers a maximum of 140 ft. pounds of torque.

Basically, the 60 hp version offers roughly 30% more hp and torque. 30% has value. To frame how much more power the 60 hp version of the NX has over the 45 hp version, from 1050 rpm and onward, the NX6010 develops more torque than the peak torque of the NX4510. That extra power has value.

Additionally, at the very end of the following video I broke the box blade (you hear it break). While the company that made the blade redesigned their blade and made it stronger and improved their design, nothing I did in the entire day's worth of work in the video is extreme, harsh or whatever. The video simply illustrates how much force a modern 60 hp CUT can put on the ground.

 

[IslandTractor]

Anyway, different tuning can make a huge difference when variable cam timing in available as well as fuel mapping.

Instead of real estate development, maybe you should go into the tractor chipping business. Flash a NX4010 and presto, a NX6010 with small wheels appears. I'm sure there are lots of horsepower junkies out there who would leap at the opportunity to hand over a few hundred bucks a try. Easier work than clearing land...

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Instead of real estate development, maybe you should go into the tractor chipping business. Flash a NX4010 and presto, a NX6010 with small wheels appears. I'm sure there are lots of horsepower junkies out there who would leap at the opportunity to hand over a few hundred bucks a try. Easier work than clearing land...

Your eight-year-old DK40 is less capable than the NX4510. Maybe you should stop imagining your tractor can do the work of more powerful and capable tractors and get a more powerful and capable tractor?

 

[IslandTractor]

Your eight-year-old DK40 is less capable than the NX4510. Maybe you should stop imagining your tractor can do the work of more powerful and capable tractors and get a more powerful and capable tractor?

Well, compared to the NX4510, the DK40 lifts the same, has pretty close to the same hydraulic output and doesn't shut itself off periodically to clean out it's innards. Yep, my DK40se HST is probably the best $18,000 I ever spent. It is shy a few horsepower at the PTO though that has never prevented me from getting work done with six foot implements. It's never failed to start with the first turn of the key and despite doing the same type of land clearing you do I've never managed to break anything serious on either the tractor or the implements it uses. I have pretzeled the bucket level indicator twice though.

Still, if I had to replace it and couldn't find a good used DK, I probably would get an NX4510. Nice tractor that really isn't much different from the DK functionally. The extra $4500 or so that you paid for a different flash EPROM so you can break mowers and box blades I'd probably invest in beer. You must be closing in on $5000 or so in repair parts for yours I'd imagine.

Have you gotten any info from Kioti yet about the duty rating for your engine? Cannot imagine Kioti would rate both the 45 and 60 the same. If you are lucky maybe the 60 is rated medium duty but I'd not be surprised to hear it was rated intermittent. They really should tell you guys that sort of thing when you buy the tractor. Surprised an experienced mechanic would not want to know that before purchase.

And tell us honestly, did you know you were paying $4500 extra for slightly different programing of the same engine (with a "free" 250 buck tire upgrade thrown in of course).

 

[murphy1244]

And the DK don't have no stinkin seat switch!!