Old Engines and New Oil

[BrokenTrack]

I have an old engine, and to get long service life (30,000 hours) the company had to upgrade the engine. So they increased oil capacity to 28 quarts, and added a secondary oil filter. That is okay, but the secondary filter is a real pain for me, so I was thinking about eliminating it.

Obviously the oil pan is still 28 quarts, but I was thinking:

Single Filter Oil Filtration with Full-Synthetic Oil would be just as good for engine longevity, as Two-Filter Oil Filtration with the oil they had in 1979 wouldn't it?

In other words, using better oil would be just as good as filtering less-than-stellar oil twice.

I could change the oil more often, but good gracious, that is 28 quarts! That would get expensive!

 

[SimS]

How often does the secondary filter need to be changed? Have the oil tested to see how effective the current system is performing. IIWY Instead of deleting the filter maybe just change the secondary less frequently (because of it's difficulty for you) and change the primary more often depending on the oil analysis.

SimS

 

[Peter 315]

My new car 5k with reg oil 10k with syn oil in the owners manual ., So I would leave everything alone the filter,capacity and put in syn oil and run it till it needs to be changed just take a sample send it to the lab for testing and go from there... maybe double the run hours or more...:2cents:

 

[Peter 315]

You can get this type of drain plug to take the samples easy ......https://www.amazon.com/Fumoto-F108S-Drain-Valve-Nippple/dp/B004FFHH0M

 

[fried1765]

I would be concerned that somehow/someway that valve could accidentally open, and drain the oil pan dry.
I use a different and easier method.
A 12V dipstick oil extractor/pump (cheap on E-Bay).

No need to get under the car, and can pump directly into an empty jug.
Oil filter is top mounted canister (MB E350), so no need to get under the car for that either.
Could probably do the oil change in a long sleeve white shirt.

 

[LouNY]

Is that secondary filter a full flow filter or a bypass filter designed to filter a side stream of oil much cleaner then the primary filter.

 

[rScotty]

Is that secondary filter a full flow filter or a bypass filter designed to filter a side stream of oil much cleaner then the primary filter.

That's exactly the question that I had. I don't understand the advantage of two filters unless one is a side-stream bypass type. Then there is a quite a large known advantage. Bypass filtering has been around for a long time and it works. I remember having it on our old 50 chevy PU.
rScotty

 

[Peter 315]

That's exactly the question that I had. I don't understand the advantage of two filters unless one is a side-stream bypass type. Then there is a quite a large known advantage. Bypass filtering has been around for a long time and it works. I remember having it on our old 50 chevy PU.
rScotty

They use to hang a luber finer filter on the old trucks ,My Autocar had one and a power steering reservoir on the outside of the cab...

 

[Grumpycat]

If the 2 filters are different P/N and/or located in different places then I'd stay with the original plan. Oil filters are statistical things. Doesn't catch everything the first time, more things the 2nd time, yet still not everything. Also, stuff floating in the oil is not the main reason we change oil. Water is something we change oil to remove from the engine, an oil filter won't do it.

There is nothing abut "synthetic motor oil" that inherently permits a longer drain interval. There are synthetic motor oils designed for extended drain, but not all are. And those designed for extended drain are only approved as such in engines designed for extended drain.

At 28 quarts you can justify the cost of a ~$30 used oil analysis to answer the question of whether it is time to change the oil. Blackstone sells a pump kit with hose to push down the dipstick hole to draw a sample cleanly into their sample bottle.

 

[BrokenTrack]

Is that secondary filter a full flow filter or a bypass filter designed to filter a side stream of oil much cleaner then the primary filter.

It is full-flow and was hanging off the side of the engine in a weird way, but if kept there, that would make it be right in my way. I was going to fabricate a mount for it, but then thought, "why not just get rid of it?"

When I got the engine manual on the engine, on the very last page it explains the changes what the engine maker (Perkins) had to do to make it a Reefer Engine, and oil sump and secondary oil filtration was a few of the big reasons. But I am unsure. It is going from severe service (Reefer Engine) to the easiest engine service there is (Genset) so maybe a single oil filter would be fine?

It will be at a constant temperature of 100-180 degrees running or not, but condensation forms at 123 degrees, so it will not be a condensation free engine by any means. I could bump the primary boiler loop water temperature up to keep it above condensation temps when the boiler water is circulating, but then the cost of operating my heating system all winter by 23 degrees more on the low set point would cost more than more frequent oil changes in my co-gen engine.:thumbdown: Oh the problems of having a condensing boiler system with non-condensing add-on appliances!

Because it is a Reefer Engine, oil changes will be a huge pain. It has a huge, but low and squat oil pan with two drain ports since it is a split sump.

Engine Manual Quote:

"Due to the fact that the lubricating oil sump capacity has been increased to 28 pints and a much larger full flow lubricating oil filter is used, also the addition of a by-pass lubricating oil filter, the lubricating oil and filter element change period is extended to 1,000 hours."

 

[rScotty]

It is full-flow and was hanging off the side of the engine in a weird way, but if kept there, that would make it be right in my way. I was going to fabricate a mount for it, but then thought, "why not just get rid of it?"

OK, so it sounds like you do need the full flow filter. But there's no need for it to be in any particular location. It could be just about anywhere and connected with flex lines.

BTW, are we talking 28 quarts or 28 pints of oil? I see both figures.
rScotty

 

[SimS]

^X2 OP mentioned 28 quarts originally, but this last manual quote mentions 28 PINTS. A different strategy may be needed.

 

[DEWFPO]

If you decide you want or need dual filters you could use a dual filter remote mount setup to give you that filtering capacity and you could mount the dual setup almost anywhere you want. Also, 7 gallons vs 28 gallons....... that may help you decide.

DEWFPO

 

[BrokenTrack]

OK, so it sounds like you do need the full flow filter. But there's no need for it to be in any particular location. It could be just about anywhere and connected with flex lines.

BTW, are we talking 28 quarts or 28 pints of oil? I see both figures.
rScotty

I guess it is only 28 pints. I knew they had increased the capacity to 28, but oil is typically stated in QUARTS not pints, but when I copied the manual, I noted it said PINTS. I was surprised, because that is only 3.5 gallons.

 

[90cummins]

In most situations highly efficient oil filtration is more beneficial than premium synthetic oil.
The exception would be extreme heat or cold ambient conditions.
Bypass filtration is key to extended oil changes and engine life.
Many people (myself included) would install a bypass filter on all my diesels if it was easy.
Eliminating a bypass filter from an engine designed for hundreds or thousands of hours between oil/filter changes would in my opinion be a shame.
Keep the filter in place. It does not need to be replaced every time the full flow filter is changed.
I installed a bypass filter on my dodge diesel years ago and would monitor the condition of the filter by the temperature of the filter body. As the filter becomes restricted the body cools down.
Also you need to realize that as a filter becomes loaded with contaminates the flow decreases but the ability of the filter to capture smaller and smaller particles increases.
As was mentioned earlier in the post relocate the filter if you must but don’t eliminate it.
90cummins

 

[BleedingOrange]

I would be concerned that somehow/someway that valve could accidentally open, and drain the oil pan dry.
I use a different and easier method.
A 12V dipstick oil extractor/pump (cheap on E-Bay).

No need to get under the car, and can pump directly into an empty jug.
Oil filter is top mounted canister (MB E350), so no need to get under the car for that either.
Could probably do the oil change in a long sleeve white shirt.

That system works, to get the majority of the old oil out, but I,ve always wondered how much stuff is left on the bottom of the oil pan, and will get mixed in with the new oil once it has been added. If possible, even thou it is messy, and more of a pain, I always prefer to drain the warmed up oil thru the factory drain hole, hoping to get more of the crud out with each oil and filter change.

 

[Texasmark]

I have an old engine, and to get long service life (30,000 hours) the company had to upgrade the engine. So they increased oil capacity to 28 quarts, and added a secondary oil filter. That is okay, but the secondary filter is a real pain for me, so I was thinking about eliminating it.

Obviously the oil pan is still 28 quarts, but I was thinking:

Single Filter Oil Filtration with Full-Synthetic Oil would be just as good for engine longevity, as Two-Filter Oil Filtration with the oil they had in 1979 wouldn't it?

In other words, using better oil would be just as good as filtering less-than-stellar oil twice.

I could change the oil more often, but good gracious, that is 28 quarts! That would get expensive!

The primary filter is probably 20 microns and is full flow volume. The secondary is probably a 10% of full flow volume and is 5 microns.....lower flow due to the resistance of the 5 micron element. OTR trucks have the same setup. That's how/one way they get half a million miles out of an engine before an inframe.

 

[tmeric7]

The fundamental question is... Can better quality oil compensate for reduced filtration? I would say no. The oil and the filter do not have the same job. More frequent oil changes would be a better strategy than using better oil.

 

[crashz]

Application means a lot here. A reefer is run for long hours, every or nearly every night. Weather could be wild, & conditions dirty. I would think in the genset, conditions are much more favorable, with low dust and milder temps. And what do you expect to accumulate for hours each year? I remember reading that this is for more than just emergency power. Basically I think you need to look at the number of hours it runs each year. 100-200, forget the second filter and do annual oil changes. 1000 hrs - keep the secondary filter.

Modern oil is much better than old stuff, but like said above, its not a replacement for good filtration. How are the seals and gaskets in this engine? Great air filtration and proper breathers will help too.

 

[BrokenTrack]

Application means a lot here. A reefer is run for long hours, every or nearly every night. Weather could be wild, & conditions dirty. I would think in the genset, conditions are much more favorable, with low dust and milder temps. And what do you expect to accumulate for hours each year? I remember reading that this is for more than just emergency power. Basically I think you need to look at the number of hours it runs each year. 100-200, forget the second filter and do annual oil changes. 1000 hrs - keep the secondary filter.

Modern oil is much better than old stuff, but like said above, its not a replacement for good filtration. How are the seals and gaskets in this engine? Great air filtration and proper breathers will help too.

Those are some good questions. I am not sure on the hours the engine would be subjected too. I had originally intended for it for cogeneration, but to be honest with you, using wood pellets to heat our home is so cheap, it would really be hard to beat them. Had we used propane this year, we would have been around $2800, but with wood pellets, we would have paid about $1000. (I trade firewood in exchange for wood pellets).

The seals are all good on the engine though. It was rebuilt with all new seals and gaskets except for the fuel injection pump. I am going to check that first to see if it is leaking, and then go from there. If I need to reseal it, I will, but i want to wait first. This engine has very few hours on it...2607 hours.