Buying Advice Old utility tractor vs. newer compact tractor?

[Verticaltrx]

You can find plenty of nice used 4wd compact tractors with loaders in the $10-12K range if you look hard enough. I think a Kubota B or L series, Deere 50, 55, 70 series, 790, 3005, 4005, Ford/New Holland 1710, 1910, etc or similar sized in the brand of your choice would suit your needs well and not break the bank.

As to your original question for the tasks you mentioned a compact 4wd with a loader would be the way to go. Around a homestead or small farm a unit like that is indispensable. The utility tractors (say 35-40hp and up) really shine when you have a lot of field work to do, think haying, bush hogging, tillage, etc. I would much rather spend a day in the field on my old IH 454 than my B3200, but around the house and farmyard the B3200 is what I always hop on first.

 

[mo1]

I did a lot more reading and research since I posted last. I've determined that I'll probably be buying a new MFWD compact with a loader in the ~35 HP range as well as a 6-7' rear finish mower. I am thinking something like a John Deere 3023E/3038E, New Holland Workmaster 35/40 (or the LS equivalent), Kubota L3901 (or maybe L3301 hydro), or Massey 1739E. I'd prefer a gear drive since most of my work would be mowing and I am familiar with gar transmissions but wouldn't be opposed to having a hydro unit since there will certainly be some backing and turning and loader work as well. I do not want a non-live PTO since I will be running a mower most of the time and I don't want it to die and then have to disengage the PTO, throttle down, re-engage the PTO, and then re-engage the clutch and throttle back up to let the mower spin back up every time I hit the clutch to reverse during turning. That's why the Kubota L3301 gear and smaller Massey 1700Es are out as they have non-live PTOs. There is unfortunately a pretty limited market for used compact tractors and I've looked at Tractor House, Fastline, Equipment Trader, local dealer websites, the national manufacturer used equipment websites (Equipment Finder, etc.), Craigslist, and so forth and not found a whole lot. Most of what's out there used isn't that much less expensive than new since it's rare to see anything with more than a few hundred hours on it. It's additionally mostly high-end stuff often with a cab as well which isn't what I am looking for. I'm looking for something that's essentially an old-school utility tractor shrunk down to ~35 HP or so which would be enough to run a 6-7' finish mower as well as my Dad's 6' rough-cut mower, 3 point broadcast spreader, and tiller.

As far as the units I listed, I haven't seen a whole lot on any of them except for the Deere units. The EPA Tier 4 changes led to new models for everything except the Deere 3Es. Here's roughly what I see in each of them:

1. Deere 3032E/3038E:
- Made in US by Deere instead of a rebranded overseas tractor so future parts availability should be good, if needed
- On the lighter end of the weight spectrum which would be better for cutting the lawn
- Has been produced for several years so there is some feedback for the unit, the majority of which appears to be good.
- I don't care that it lacks a mid mount PTO or super fancy e-hydro control as I won't be using those features. As long as I can run a rear PTO and have a basic "roughly keep this speed" cruise control I am fine.
- Along with the NH Workmaster 35/LS G3033, the 3032E is the only sub-35 hp unit with a live/independent PTO.
- Only available with a hydro transmission but it does have two pedals rather than a treadle which seems to be disliked here
- Has only one brake pedal which is integrated with the diff lock. Probably not that big of a deal for lawn mowing as braking a wheel would rip up the lawn but this would be handy in rough-cutting the orchard.
- You pay extra for SCVs and cruise control and I'd need both.

2. NH Workmaster 35/40 (aka LS's Tier IV replacement to the G3033/G3038)
- Well priced, list is about $3k less MSRP than the equivalent Deere (3032E/3038E) or Massey (WM 40 vs. 1739E)
- Has proper individual brake pedals for the rear wheels
- Available with a gear transmission and independent PTO
- Higher 3 pt lift capacity compared to the 3E Deeres
- Somewhat heavier than the Deere and Kubota units
- Parts availability may be an issue in the future as NH has a huge turnover in modes and in who actually produces their compact tractors in the past decade or so (it's made by Shibaura, no, it's made by LS, no now it's made by LS with a Shibaura engine...)

3. Kubota L3301 Hydro/L3901
- Made by Kubota so parts and service should not be an issue, they have a good dealer network in the Midwest
- Available with a gear transmission
- Lighter than the NH/LS units but heavier than the Deeres
- Not sure on price, I could not find pricing information unfortunately.
- Treadle hydrostatic transmission control a lot of folks don't like and no live PTO on a gear tractor less than 39 hp
- "Jerky" 3 point hitch often complained about here

4. Massey-Ferguson 1739E
- Available with a gear transmission
- Individual wheel brake pedals and a separate diff lock pedal
- Less expensive by a little bit than the comparable Deere 3038E
- Similar feature set compared to the Deere 3032E/WM 35 selling for thousands less. Equivalent size 1700E (1734E) lacks a live/independent PTO and won't work for me.
- Probably a variation on the Iseki models they've sold for years? But this is a brand-new model, no word on how reliable it is or isn't compared to the older 1600 series and what has actually changed compared to older models.

If any of you have any opinions regarding these units, please feel free to share them. I'm hedging towards the NH Workmaster 35/LS G3033 first followed by the Deere 3032 since mid-high 20s PTO HP should be enough to drive the implements I want and they are less expensive than the other models listed here.

 

[jeff9366]

MO1: Good post. I think you have everything thought out.

From here on it is "HOW MANY ANGELS CAN DANCE ON THE HEAD OF A PIN?", so you cannot go far wrong.

Consider proximity of dealer as tie-breaker.

 

[newbury]

Well I stayed out of this thread because it became a urination war for a while.

BUT -

<snip>There is unfortunately a pretty limited market for used compact tractors and I've looked at Tractor House, Fastline, Equipment Trader, local dealer websites, the national manufacturer used equipment websites (Equipment Finder, etc.), Craigslist, and so forth and not found a whole lot. Most of what's out there used isn't that much less expensive than new since it's rare to see anything with more than a few hundred hours on it. It's additionally mostly high-end stuff often with a cab as well which isn't what I am looking for. I'm looking for something that's essentially an old-school utility tractor shrunk down to ~35 HP or so which would be enough to run a 6-7' finish mower as well as my Dad's 6' rough-cut mower, 3 point broadcast spreader, and tiller. <snip

First of all what's this fascination with mowing with a 35+HP tractor? (of course I can't see the sense in 3 acres of lawn anyways) My little B7610 w/ turfs tears up lawns pretty easy.

It reads like your going to have about 8 acres of trees, 3 acres of lawn, 1 acre of "horsy" stuff. A small ZTR would be great for mowing. A tractor for all the rest.

Second - for about 2 years (2011-2012) I was looking for a tractor that would lift a 10' log (about a ton), on the 3pt for < 15K. My little B7610 couldn't There always seemed to be some at Barlow's (who ships anywhere in the US) for a good price. Check Barlow's. (I ended up getting a 50 HP M4700 which lifts a ton on the FEL for $11.5K fron an auction but that's another story).

I'm pretty sure Barlow's could fix you up with a moderately used 35HP diesel that will handle EVERYTHING except the lawn with enough left over for a small ZTR that will handle your lawn in 2 hours. And you won't tear up your lawn, AND the ZTR only takes a little more room than a mower deck.

<snip>
3. Kubota L3301 Hydro/L3901
- Made by Kubota so parts and service should not be an issue, they have a good dealer network in the Midwest
- Available with a gear transmission
- Lighter than the NH/LS units but heavier than the Deeres
- Not sure on price, I could not find pricing information unfortunately.
- Treadle hydrostatic transmission control a lot of folks don't like and no live PTO on a gear tractor less than 39 hp
- "Jerky" 3 point hitch often complained about here
<snip>

I'm a Kubota fan - Have you tried Build my Kubota ? Then maybe take off 15% for a discount and add in any taxes and transportation. But it looks like about $20K for a L3301 w/ FEL.

I know that with a ZTR you don't get "big tractor seat time". And if your getting a small tractor, go Hydro, it doesn't scare other people (like the wife) who might want to help.

With your 8 acre of trees w/ up to 2' diameters you'll have some need for lifting. With your Dad's equipment you'll need the HP. But the HP to run your dad's equipment will be heavy on a lawn.

 

[motownbrowne]

I sure like my treadle pedal just fine. I'm sure I'd like the two pedal design just fine too. Don't rule out the Kubotas just for that.

 

[mo1]

Well I stayed out of this thread because it became a urination war for a while.

BUT -
First of all what's this fascination with mowing with a 35+HP tractor? (of course I can't see the sense in 3 acres of lawn anyways) My little B7610 w/ turfs tears up lawns pretty easy.

It reads like your going to have about 8 acres of trees, 3 acres of lawn, 1 acre of "horsy" stuff. A small ZTR would be great for mowing. A tractor for all the rest.

You have the general layout of the property right- it currently is 10 acres of trees, a 1/2 acre front yard, and an acre of "horsy" stuff that will have about 2 acres of the trees turned into a yard. The area was all woods to begin with and the soil is rocky clay with a little bit of topsoil over it. The yard is certainly no golf course nor is it particularly smooth. Mowed weeds would probably be the best way to describe what it is right now and that's all I think the previous owners did. The "horsy" area is particularly rough and ugly as the previous owners essentially just cut/knocked down the trees, fenced it in, and put horses in there.

Second - for about 2 years (2011-2012) I was looking for a tractor that would lift a 10' log (about a ton), on the 3pt for < 15K. My little B7610 couldn't There always seemed to be some at Barlow's (who ships anywhere in the US) for a good price. Check Barlow's. (I ended up getting a 50 HP M4700 which lifts a ton on the FEL for $11.5K fron an auction but that's another story).

I'm pretty sure Barlow's could fix you up with a moderately used 35HP diesel that will handle EVERYTHING except the lawn with enough left over for a small ZTR that will handle your lawn in 2 hours. And you won't tear up your lawn, AND the ZTR only takes a little more room than a mower deck. I'm a Kubota fan - Have you tried Build my Kubota ? Then maybe take off 15% for a discount and add in any taxes and transportation. But it looks like about $20K for a L3301 w/ FEL.

I know that with a ZTR you don't get "big tractor seat time". And if your getting a small tractor, go Hydro, it doesn't scare other people (like the wife) who might want to help.

I was able to finally get to the prices on Kubota's website. I didn't know that you had to click several pages in to see prices but now I found them.

I looked some more at ZTRs like you suggested and saw a few things. I would not be able to run a ZTR very fast over the yard as it is right now as it's pretty rough so my mowing speed would be mainly determined by deck size rather than ground speed. All but the smallest ZTRs are also much heavier than I initially suspected. A "typical" ZTR with a 60" deck weighs essentially what a smaller-frame compact tractor like a Kubota B series does which is about a ton. I'm surprised I don't hear much about ZTRs tearing up lawns considering what they weigh! I also would still need a tractor to rough-cut the "horsy" area unless I till that up, smooth it out, and reseed it as well. I would also still need to run the tiller, run a loader, etc. and that would require a tractor. However the price of a smaller decent ZTR like the Kubota Z1xx series (~$5k) is only about a grand or so more than the price of a decent 7-foot rear finishing mower. It would be slower in mowing though.

My wife doesn't do anything with lawn mowing even when all we did was mow a 60x120 perfectly flat treeless patch of grass with a pushmower. She also drives a stick in a car so it shouldn't be an issue if she did have to use a tractor with a gear transmission for some reason.

So it comes down to buy a tractor and a rear finish mower and do everything with it or buy essentially the same tractor AND a ZTR instead of the finish mower. I think you gave me some good things to think about. I suppose I'll need to see exactly what my wife wants to do with putting in trees and landscaping and such. She promised that she'd try to keep the obstacles to a minimum but we'll see.

 

[garacuda]

-
- I asked my Dad his opinon. The smallest tractor he's owned was an early-1980s JD 2240 which was I believe a 53 engine HP unit. He took a drive past the place I bought and said to "spend the 15 grand to buy a new Kubota with a loader." The only compact tractors available when he was younger (in the late '70s and '80s) were Kubotas, so "Kubota" means "compact tractor" to him; he's never owned an actual Kubota. I take it he means to buy a new compact tractor.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on a 4wd 20-30 PTO HP small to medium frame compact tractor with a loader in the SW MO area after I move there in a couple of months.

I got a "Grin" out of the Kubota thing. My wife also calls anything with a FEL a Kubota. I'd borrowed a neighbors (real Kubota) FEL a few times and when we got ready to look for one she kept telling me that she saw a nice Kubota here or there and it was rarely a Kubota.

I settled on a used John Deere 4200 4x4 with hydro drive and a FEL. It's about 26-28 HP and works great for me. I found a 2000 model on CL with a tick over 1,000 hrs. on it for just under $10,000. I had to drive about 3 hrs. each way to get it, but I'm happy with my choice. She still calls it "the Kubota"..........

Looking forward to seeing what you settle on. Good Luck!

 

[vnbcat]

ROPS is the first thing...FEL with 4WD and power steering - then build from there - for the rear finish mower, you will want hydro or powershift (which doesn't usually come on the compact/smaller utility tractors) - here is another option which you didn't mention - a reconditioned Yanmar imported to this country and updated to meet the OSHA requirements - see Fredricks Equipment in Northern Alabama - these can be had with powershift which has been described as "bullet proof" I have visited their yard and there are some good looking stuff there however, you will want to research the parts and if you want to do some stuff yourself - Kioti and Mahindra both are heavy frame tractors relatively for their size - the older tractors are cool - particularly the "red belly" Fords but they are not set up for FEL, front end structure is not built for the stresses and while stick shift is cool, it gets old after a while with non synchro shifting and lack of hi-lo range etc...keep us posted Van

 

[vnbcat]

most of the stuff I have seen with FEL that is "used" is better described as "abused" - they have been used to drive fence posts and in general to pound and beat on stuff more than used as a mechanical shovel - also the front axles and structure is usually worn out or has been welded - the tires are generally worn out - the reason they are for sale is they are pretty much worn out all over...so check thoroughly

 

[k0ua]

You need a front end loader...everybody does...even if you think you don't...it makes your tractor at least twice as useful...and saves your back and much time.

Hi neighbor ( I am down in Branson).. I agree with this ^. can't imagine heaving a tractor without a FEL. I have a Kioti DK35se as you see in my Avatar.. If you want to come look at it, and play in the gravel and mulch piles, come on down. You will get a feel for a FEL, and its usefulness pretty quick. Dont forget to check out the Missouri boys thread, it is kind of like a "watering hole" for use Mo. guys.:thumbsup:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/midwest-great-lakes/228416-missouri-roll-call-show-me.html

 

[Cherokee140]

I sure like my treadle pedal just fine. I'm sure I'd like the two pedal design just fine too. Don't rule out the Kubotas just for that.

You know now that I own a Kubota I think that the side by side would be better/more natural. Let me give you one reason why.

I have been clearing lots of brush (oh I have a Kubota BX 25D, with the land pride grapple). You rip out brush one way or the other, you have a pile then you grab with the grapple and carry it off to the burn pile. In this brush are poison ivy, HUGE F-ing grape vines (but have no grapes, think Tarzan here...and yes I have swung from them) wild rose bushes, little trees...bla bla bla. Well when you grab a mouth full with the grapple sometimes when you pick it up bits hang over....well you are going to run over all this stuff if you go forward, so you drive backward all the way to the burn pile. Pushing down while driving backward is not the most natural thing to do and actually hurts my knee.

I really think the side by side is the better way to go. (I guess I should put this in my ongoing Kubota review thread)

 

[k0ua]

You know now that I own a Kubota I think that the side by side would be better/more natural. Let me give you one reason why.

I have been clearing lots of brush (oh I have a Kubota BX 25D, with the land pride grapple). You rip out brush one way or the other, you have a pile then you grab with the grapple and carry it off to the burn pile. In this brush are poison ivy, HUGE F-ing grape vines (but have no grapes, think Tarzan here...and yes I have swung from them) wild rose bushes, little trees...bla bla bla. Well when you grab a mouth full with the grapple sometimes when you pick it up bits hang over....well you are going to run over all this stuff if you go forward, so you drive backward all the way to the burn pile. Pushing down while driving backward is not the most natural thing to do and actually hurts my knee.

I really think the side by side is the better way to go. (I guess I should put this in my ongoing Kubota review thread)

I like either one. I have used the treadle pedal on my old New Holland, and of course my last Kubota, and my new Kioti has the 2 pedal system, as do most other brands now except Kubota. I like them both. But my knees still work pretty well thanks to Chondroiten with MSM 1500mg. I seem to be one of the about 30% of people that it actually helps. Most people it does not work for. You should give it a try if you haven't already. I have had a tremendous improvement since starting it about 5 years ago. It takes about a month to notice results. I have stopped taking it a couple to times to see if the results where psychosomatic but the stiffness returns and eases when I resume treatment. My doctor says "keep on taking it". Most people seem to think the side by side is preferred, but I honestly like them both.

 

[jenkinsph]

I prefer the twin pedal set up on my equipment primarily because it makes it easy to change between the mower and tractors since all are laid out the same. The guys with the treadle pedal on all of their equipment would be in a similar situation. What I don't like is the cheesy reverse on my L130 mower, that alone made me wan't an upgrade in mowers.

 

[Cherokee140]

I prefer the twin pedal set up on my equipment primarily because it makes it easy to change between the mower and tractors since all are laid out the same. The guys with the treadle pedal on all of their equipment would be in a similar situation. What I don't like is the cheesy reverse on my L130 mower, that alone made me wan't an upgrade in mowers.

Yea we have that same mower, my wife will hook her foot under the forward peddle and pull it back to her.

 

[paulfun9]

The treadle pedal is definitely enough to make me steer clear of a machine.

If you have any concerns like I do with Knee problems or even if you are tall I suggest you test out a treadle pedal machine for an extended time frame before actually considering one. I did and came to the conclusion that if I purchased one the pedal would need to be removed and a dual pedal set up would need to be fabricated or the machine would be worthless to me.

Last weekend I ran my neighbors Kabota for an hour while he tested my Kioti and that 1 hour time frame had me hurting. Decision confirmed and knowing that I would recommend and have recommended that anyone I know who is tall or has any Knee or back problems to steer clear of them. For me the folks in that category is just about everyone I know who wants , needs or is looking to sell and buy a new tractor.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

I've got both kinds. I prefer the side-by-side twin pedals. But I have no problem using the treadle on my Kubota.

 

[MHarryE]

I have both kinds. Like the treadle Kubota, survive the twin pedal JD without any real problem except getting stuck in the chest with branches because I can't work the twin pedal as quickly. Wouldn't be a make or break item. JD had direct injection before Kubota and after being surprised how much my Kubota L5640 could suck down under max load I checked Rhine fuel consumption specs and found the Deere would have whupped the Kubota. Still I rarely see CUT drivers run hard enough to use much fuel. People brag about less than 1 gallon per hour fuel usage. Go to the manufacturer's numbers and they're running about 25% power. 7' tiller sounds large for the size tractor you want. In our soil my 7' King Kutter is all my L5740 can handle but our soil sucks and in SW MO you are probably talking cotton land type soil that almost tills itself.

 

[CalG]

To the original question,

The greatest advantages to a more modern CUT over an older chore tractor for me would be the slower ground speed, and the live pto on most of todays' equipment.

The commenly fitted loader ain't a bad deal either!

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

I have both kinds. Like the treadle Kubota, survive the twin pedal JD without any real problem except getting stuck in the chest with branches because I can't work the twin pedal as quickly. Wouldn't be a make or break item. JD had direct injection before Kubota and after being surprised how much my Kubota L5640 could suck down under max load I checked Rhine fuel consumption specs and found the Deere would have whupped the Kubota. Still I rarely see CUT drivers run hard enough to use much fuel. People brag about less than 1 gallon per hour fuel usage. Go to the manufacturer's numbers and they're running about 25% power. 7' tiller sounds large for the size tractor you want. In our soil my 7' King Kutter is all my L5740 can handle but our soil sucks and in SW MO you are probably talking cotton land type soil that almost tills itself.

I'm one of those that believes that most modern tractors will use about the same amount of fuel to accomplish a given task, regardless of the size of the tractor. My little BX23 just sips diesel. My DK50SE is a little thirstier but it will get the job done faster. So at the end of the job, I think the total fuel consumed would be about the same.

 

[jeff9366]

Most modern tractors will use about the same amount of fuel to accomplish a given task, regardless of the size of the tractor.

My little BX23 just sips diesel. My DK50SE is a little thirstier but it will get the job done faster.

Total fuel consumed per work accomplished would be the same.

I experienced the same proportional diesel consumption with my prior Kubota B3300SU viz Kubota L3560.