Only SF would pull this stunt!

[MossRoad]

/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[wasabi]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Billboe, you and Charlie correctly point out that the Pledge did not originally contain the G reference, but was changed in 1954.

I was not clear about it, but did not mean to allude specifically to that alone, rather that our forefathers were obviously God loving (fearing?) folks....their belief in, and respect for, a higher power was clearly a factor in how the Constitution was drafted and how our country's governance was set up.

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I see no downside in always recognizing that our maker has a hand....in all things...

Personally I would be saddened to see God references such as "Under God', "In God we Trust", "God Bless", etc., removed, simply to placate a small but loud minority that chooses to be offended by our country's recognition of a higher power.

I respectfully disagree with Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, who opined that "none of these professions (to God) can be neutral with respect to religion". In the broader spiritual sense, the term "god" is non-denominational, non-religious and essentially a universal reference to "the highest power".

 

[MrP]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

The original intention of the 1st amendment’s separation of Church and State was to keep the Church from controlling the State and the State from controlling the Church. The whole divorcement of “God” from government sponsored activity has been misconstrued and taken to an absurd level. If this type of jurisprudence continues unabated, our currency, all state constitutions and most national monuments will be considered unconstitutional.

 

[rocky2]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Oh, how I was going to stay un-political today...just can't do it. How right you are. I don't see any mention that we all have to be Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, or whatever...But the choice of one mans faith, or lack thereof is being forced on us all by the liberal 9th court. His daughter wasn't forced to recite the Pledge, but just listening to others saying it upset him. He could have her exhibit her right and had asked that she be removed from the classroom during the Pledge for..."religious reasons". Now, the other side of the coin...is the act of being an Atheist a religious conviction?

The Bill of Rights
Amendment I.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".

 

[Alan L.]

I'm offended also, but fotunately it so so absurd that theres no way it will stand. These ignorant judges have really brought attention to how "way out there" they are.

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

This is not directed at anyone in particular, it is just my thought process.

The point is, if I go to a public event and say the pledge, but don't say "under god", I get dirty looks from the crowd.

If I get sworn in in court and they ask me to place my hand on the bible and say “so help me god”, I can't, because I would be telling a lie. So I explain myself to the judge and the crowd in the courtroom gasps. “He doesn’t believe in god! That’s terrible!”

The truth of the matter is, I am just as American as you. I fly my flag, vote in every election, honor veterans, obey the laws, tolerate and try to understand others’ beliefs and teach my kids to do the same. (I even bought an American made tractor /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif ). However, the only higher powers that I answer to are death and my conscience.

American is not a religion. It is a nationality. I’d prefer to leave religion out of government.

Best wishes to all TBNers /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Ozarker]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

But Moss, God isn't a religion either. God is nothing more than the English word for the creator of the universe. Gott is the German word and Allah is the Arabic word. They all mean the same thing. That creator may be a deity or it may just be nature. Whatever it is, it is a higher authority than man. If it didn't exist and if man were the highest authority, man would just choose to not grow old and die.

In the past, God has been the sun, the earth, the stars or the seasons. All references to nature and a higher power than man.

If you tell me you don't believe in the God of the Baptists I can understand that. Nut telling me you don't believe in God is just silly. There is a higher power than you and that power has the power of life and death over you. Perhaps that power is just nature but I guarantee that you will cower in fear when that God, the God of nature, sends a cat 5 tornado your direction. There are no atheists in fox holes.

The earth and the universe is alive and teeming with life. What makes you believe it also doesn't have a consciousness and a plan? Faith????????????? Oops......that's religious.

Just assign God to a power greater than you and rest assured you are not lying when you take an oath. Maybe your God is. like mine, really a goddess and your married to her. Mine moves in mysterious ways, does things that only she can understand and is not for me to know, seems to know what I'm doing even when she isn't there and always knows if I'm telling the truth or not. Sounds like God to me.

Most atheists are really agnostics like me.

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

I like your thinking /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

However, I don't think there is a higher power. Sometimes things happen that are beyond my control and sometimes I even have the wisdom to recognize that I cannot change them/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif. I don't figure any higher power is out to get me and if they are, I don't want anything to do with some vengeful being. I try to live my life in a kind and generous fashion so that I have a clear mind with no thoughts of "should I have done differently" running around in there. That'll get me by just fine until I croak. And hopefully my wife, children and friends will remember me that way. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Here's some wisdom for you:

When my nephew was 5, my grandmother passed away. At the funeral, his grandmother went up to the casket with him to pay their final respects. She put her arm around him, trying to make sure he was comforted, and said, "Well, I guess you could just say she's sleeping", to which my nephew replied, "Or you could just say she's dead." Half the family heard it and a roar of laughter went up.

From the mouth of babes comes the truth. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

So is this discussion over, moved the the "pledge" discussion, or are you folks just having a fun weekend doing other stuff?

 

[milkman]

sounds like we need a full and thorough investigation to get all the facts, and then a fully funded study to see why this happened in the first place. a new cabinet post to coordinate all the info as it comes in so someone can connect all the dots.

 

[RanchMan]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

MossRoad -

I won't expound my beliefs here as I have been typing too much on the "Pledge" thread as it is, but I did want to ask if you could clarify something for me.

<font color=blue>"...if I go to a public event and say the pledge, but don't say "under god", I get dirty looks from the crowd."</font color=blue>

and

<font color=blue>"...So I explain myself to the judge and the crowd in the courtroom gasps. “He doesn’t believe in god! That’s terrible!”
"</font color=blue>

Have both these incidents actually happened to you, or was this an example of what you believe would happen? In the big scheme of my view on the subject (which I talk about in the Pledge thread), the answer doesn't really affect my opinion one way or the other -- I was just curious.

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Yes, it happens to me. Although I cannot recall the last time that I was at an event that they said the pledge( which they should say more often, in my opinion ). Now, don't get me wrong, I don't make a big deal of it. But I just don't think "under god" should be in the pledge.

As far as court goes, it has happened twice. Big gasps from the "audience". Dirty looks and a comment or two afterwards. And all I did was promise to tell the truth /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif.

 

[RanchMan]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Thanks for the clarification. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Golfgar4]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

<font color=blue>"Big gasps from the "audience"."</font color=blue>

I've had the same thing happen at church. When we recite the Apostle's Creed, I say Holy Christian Church 'cause that's what I learned as kid.

But in our hymnals, it says Holy Catholic Church. Boy, do I get the stares when I say that!! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

The funny thing is, at least to me - my church is Lutheran!! Go figure those Norwegian Lutherans! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Now before anybody gets bent out of shape for Norwegian or Lutheran bashing - I am one on both counts - so I can say it! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Hee hee... I was raised Catholic. 12 years of Catholic school. Seriously considered becoming a priest until about age 16. Made some decisions. Decided to stay Catholic until I was 18, because it was what my parents thought was the right way and it was their house, etc... Turned 18, told them thanks, but have changed my beliefs and gave them the reasons why. They were very nice about it and agreed with my thought process. We remained close and happy and never argued about it.

I married a Catholic girl. We were married in the Catholic church. The priest had no problem doing the ceremony. He knew my beliefs and my wife’s. He knew that we thought it out( we had dated for 5 years). I agreed to raise our kids Catholic with the condition that we would not hide from them the fact that I am no longer Catholic. I help them learn their prayers and studies, etc… Every so often as the 9 year old gets older, she asks me why I am no longer Catholic or my thoughts on some aspect of her faith. As she gets older, my answers get more detailed as I see fit. She doesn’t have any problem with it at all. She prays for me often and I appreciate it. I occasionally accompany them to church on special occasions( Easter, Christmas, holy days), or just to hear my 9 year old sing with the choir. However, I do not say the prayers. I stand in quiet respect with my hand on my daughter’s shoulder. I’ll occasionally join in the singing because I like the songs. I enjoy seeing a group of people celebrating their faith. It is just something that I don’t believe in. It is just that simple.

Man do I get the occasional dirty look for not praying or participating in the sacraments. Some of these folks have never talked to me. For all they know, I could be mute but have never bothered to ask, yet they still give me those looks. And in a church, of all places! Anyway, I don't wish them any ill will. Nor do I wish anyone any ill will for wanting to keep "under god" in the pledge of allegiance. It is just my opinion that it doesn't belong in a pledge to our great country. Others' opinions might be different, and I can live with that.

 

[Bird]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

<font color=blue>in our hymnals, it says Holy Catholic Church</font color=blue>

Is that "Catholic" with a capital C or a lower case C? I thought it was a lower case C meaning the universal church while a capital C would denote the Roman Catholic faith.

 

[Golfgar4]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

<font color=blue>"Is that "Catholic" with a capital C or a lower case C?"</font color=blue>

DOH!/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

I never even thought about that Bird! And I never asked anyone either. But you are correct - it is lower case.

Even though it slipped past me, it makes it even odder that people would get upset if they recognized that the words catholic and christian would be interchangeable. Just goes to show you that the people who are getting upset don't understand what it means themselves!

Thanks! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Golfgar4]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Dave,

I can understand where you're coming from. My daughter has some of the same feelings and viewpoints as you do. I understand and respect her beliefs. I'm proud of the way she lives her life and the values she believes in.

Unfortunately. my wife is having a real hard time with this. I think most of the TBN'ers have figured out that even though I'm made a few jokes about my wife, and wives in general, she is the most important thing in my life. But this thing is causing us some problems. She can't seem to understand how I can be so accepting of our daughter's lack of faith. I try to explain that it is just a different kind of faith than ours, whatever it is or isn't. My wife seems to think that we did something wrong in our upbringing. I explain that that's not the case. Our daughter has simply examined and reviewed everything that was ever taught to her, and for whatever reason, has decided to believe in things somewhat differently than we do. That doesn't make her a bad person.

Anyway, I know we'll get through this "bump" in the road. Just wanted you to know that there are many people who do understand what you believe, or don't believe in./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MossRoad]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

<font color=blue>I'm proud of the way she lives her life and the values she believes in.</font color=blue>

You can't ask for more than that, now can you? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

That's one of my main concerns; how will my children turn out? So far, so good. 9 and 4 year olds are both great kids. Although my friends that survived teenagers say I haven't seen anything yet /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[Bird]

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Garry, I was raised a Baptist, but married a Methodist (you know that's a Baptist that's afraid of water - and my wife is/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), so I eventually became a Methodist. And the first time in the Methodist Church when they recited the Apostle's Creed, I sure wondered about that word "catholic" in there, so I had to do some checking. And the first time my mother visited a Methodist Church with us, she didn't like that word either./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I worked on Sundays for many years and got completely out of the habit of going to church. And when we were much younger and our oldest daughter was 7 years old, she had to have some minor surgery and spend a night in the hospital (St. Paul's). At the registration desk, the clerk asked about our religious affiliation and I, quite honestly but laughingly, told her I was raised a Baptist, my wife was raised a Methodist, but had been attending an Episcopalian church with her aunt and uncle when I met her, that because of my job we hadn't been going to church, but that our daughters had been attending a Methodist Church with the next door neighbors.

That night a Nun came into the room to talk to our daughter and asked if she could help her say her prayers (and did). Then as the Nun was leaving, she leaned over and whispered something to my wife. After she left, I asked my wife what she said. My wife said the Nun told her, "It really doesn't matter what church ya'll go to, but ya'll need to get together!"/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I still wonder what the clerk put on that registration form./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif