Phone Bill Woes...Need Some Advice

Henro · Feb 23, 2004

Hi,

Need some help/advice...I hope no one minds me posting this question here... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I am trying to help a friend who is new to this county. The only reason I am involved in this is because his native language is not English.

It’s a long story, but I’ll give a brief summary. He signed up with Verizon for phone service last September after arriving in the States. He did not get an international calling plan. Perhaps he did not understand at the time that there were such calling plans.

Anyway, after getting an initial bill or two, and being charged about $3.00 per minute for international calls, he stopped using the phone. He paid those expensive first Verizon bills in full. He called AT&T and switched to their international calling plan.

He received a letter welcoming him as an AT&T customer. He called AT&T and spoke with someone [a customer service person in his native language] and was told that it was OK to call international now, that he was activated on the AT&T international plan. That was in late October. He started using the phone again.

He gets his bill for November and there are $1,366 in international phone charges on it from Verizon! He stops using the phone again after seeing the November bill. And due to the overlap of billing cycles and arrival time of the bill, he also has $721 of international billing charges on his December bill.

Since January 21, I have literally spent about 12 hours on the phone with Verizon/AT&T and/or writing letters on my friend’s behalf. It looks like AT&T either did not actually make the switch happen, or it happened and then a few days later he was cancelled as an AT&T customer.

He would have no motivation to cancel and go back to paying $3 per minute. It would be totally illogical for him to do this. So I believe someone at AT&T messed up, somehow, someway.

Verizon is unwilling to change the charges, or to negotiate them downwards. They do not even have a number for the long distance billing department that a consumer can call. The have no mediator/arbitrator to make a decision. At least that is what they tell me.

AT&T claims they have no responsibility in the matter and that the service was cancelled at his request, which is not the case. But apparently that is what the AT&T computer says. They are unwilling to provide anything in writing to document how this happened.

So my friend is in the position of being a pebble between two large rock mountains.

As a foreigner and not real strong in the English language he is hesitant to do something like go to small claims court, if this would even be possible in this situation. Getting an attorney involved looks like it would quickly eat up the $2,000 in question.

It may be possible to file a complaint with the FCC, but I am not sure if that will help or not.

Ideally, it would be nice if the facts could be put in front of an arbiter/mediator, but I don’t have a clue how this would be done, if it were even possible. Verizon acted like I was nuts for even suggesting that such a thing might make sense. I have not yet called AT&T to ask if they have any kind of arbitration/mediation. I’m sick of being on the phone, got to take a break first.

Verizon says: It’s not our problem if AT&T did not switch you. Pay the $3 per minute. $2,000+ total.

AT&T says: You cancelled your International Calling Plan with us [not true]. It’s not our problem, you were a Verizon customer.

It seems to me that it is most likely that AT&T somehow messed up. It would be nice to put the facts in front of an independent third party and get a decision, and abide by it. I guess that is what the courts are for. But there should be an easier way!

I want to help this guy but I am lost at this point.

Ideas anyone??? Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated!

I want to put a /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif here, but the way I really feel at the moment is /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

BillG_in_TX · Feb 23, 2004

It sounds to me like someone at Verizon could have switched him back without his knowledge or permission (aka "slamming"). /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

If there is a recording of the cancellation conversation, maybe he has a chance at contesting it. But AT&T doesn't have anything at stake here, and Verizon doesn't appear to have a downside - except for bad publicity in forums like this. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Bird · Feb 23, 2004

Bill, first thing is that I believe he should have gotten a confirmation number when he contacted AT&T to change to their service, but I'll bet he didn't write that down. Second thing is that there's been a lot of publicity about "slamming" so I wouldn't think that anyone at Verizon would do that (of course I'm not sure who changed it back to Verizon from AT&T). And since we're in different states, I don't know whether you have a Public Utilities Commission like we have in Texas. I had a problem once with Verizon, when it was still GTE, Southwest, and got nowhere trying to deal with them. So I called the Public Utilities Commission at the state capitol, and had GTE calling me that same day to get the problem corrected.

After I posted this, I looked and found your Public Utilities Commission here.

Golfgar4 · Feb 23, 2004

Bill,

I may be way off base here. Heck, I can't even remember my cell phone number, let alone figure how the billings are supposed to work! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Anyway, was your friends switch made under the new regualtions that let a customer switch from one service to a different service and still keep the first phone number?

If it was, it seems to me that I recall reading that there is some kind of site or number a person can call when they have problems with a switch. It might be worthwhile to do a little surfing to see if you could find out about that.

Of course, if you just wait a little while, someone on TBN will provide the information right here!

Good luck. It's great that you're trying to help your friend out this way! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hakim · Feb 23, 2004

You or he will get NO WHERE trying to get one phone company or the other to accept that there was a "mistake" made.

Your only shot is to make a formal complaint of "slamming." The FCC administers these regulations.

TELEPHONE SERVICE • Slamming

!Protect Yourself: Slamming

“Slamming” is the illegal act of switching your long distance, local toll or local telephone company without your permission.
You may not know until you find a different company name on your bill, or your phone charges are much higher than normal. If you’ve been slammed:

• ask your local phone company to switch you back to your original company at no charge;

• tell the original company you’re switching back, and ask to be enrolled in your previous calling plan; and

• contact the company that slammed you, whose name and number is on the bill, to exercise your rights not to pay those charges.

If you’re unable to resolve your complaint, contact the Federal Communications Commission (FCC).

Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau (CGB)
Federal Communications Commission
445 12th St., SW
Washington, DC 20554
Toll free: 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322)
Toll free: 1-888-TELL-FCC (1-888-835-5322)
e-mail: fccinfo@fcc.gov
www.fcc.gov

Public inquiries, informal complaints,
cable, radio, satellite,
telephone, television and wireless.

FCC Slamming Complaint Form

There are also State links that allow for complaints ot be filed within the State as well. Go to your state home page and look for consumer complaint pages. Or just do a search on "slamming."

It may take some time, but I believe in the end these charges can be reversed. It is unlikely that the second company will assume payment for them.

Hope this helps. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

PineRidge · Feb 23, 2004

Hakim had a good answer contact the FCC but go one step further and also fire a complaint letter off to your State Attorney General as well. You would be surprised at just how much weight a letter like that can have. Especially if the FCC or Attorney General has any previous complaints against this Company that you may not be aware of. Good luck to you Henro I applaud you for your efforts in this matter.

Hakim · Feb 23, 2004

Henro,

If this was a "wireless" phone, there are additional avenues for complaint. Apparently there have been many thousands of problems, errors and complaint since the "portability" rules went into effect at the end of November. You need to tuie this to either "slamming" or "portability", because those are two "flashpoint" words that the FCC will accept that the companies were probably at fault.

You can file an electronic complaint, but you would need electronic versions of all the relevant paperwork. You most likely will have to file a hard copy.

Here is the FCC advice:

What We Need From You If You Are NOT Filing Electronically:

We need the following information when you file a slamming complaint with the FCC:

your name, address and phone number

phone number(s) that was allegedly slammed

your e-mail address, if applicable

name of the phone company that allegedly slammed you

name of your authorized local phone company

name of your authorized long distance company

a brief statement of the facts

COPIES of your phone bill showing the name of the alleged unauthorized carrier and the disputed charges. (Important: if you file by e-mail or electronically, your bill must be attached, electronically, to your complaint. Otherwise, you can file by letter or fax and attach paper copies of your bill)

whether or not you have paid any of the disputed charges

Hope this helps...

kevincook · Feb 23, 2004

If he cancelled his AT&T service wouldn't he have NO service. Somebody must have told AT&T he was switching to Verizon.

I recently switched from MCI to Verizon and had to wait on the phone for a third party to confirm I was switching to them. The call was recorded. I would file complaints with the Attorney General, FCC and your public service commission and not pay the bill. Let them take your friend to court and produce the audio tapes confirming he actually told Verizon to switch him back.

Good Luck,
Kevin

aloha · Feb 23, 2004

Did he cancel the Verizon service? Or did he think that calling AT&T was sufficient, and then continued to use the Verizon account? If he did not follow the Verizon procedures to cancel, possibly including paying an early termination fee, then it may be his problem.

It does not sound likely that AT&T is the problem in this case (unlikely they would dump a paying customer), but it certainly may be possible that if he did do everything right Verizon might have slammed or crammed him.

What are the consequences if he tells Verizon to pound sand? Is he planning to stay in this country? Does he need credit?

Henro · Feb 23, 2004

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the input so far. My head is kind of numb from this thing, so I am going to let things settle a bit before I review a pile of papers and notes I have on this matter...

Couple things I may not have been clear on. It was a land line, not a wireless phone. I thought when one changed from one long distance provider to another, the the one you were going to handle the switch, if you agreed to switch. I will have to ask my friend if he did the third party verification thing. He would have have had to do it right the first (and only, according to my friend) time I would assume since he got a welcome letter from AT&T. Why things were changed away from AT&T is anybodys guess. I should contact AT&T and verify this switch back.

I am pretty sure that he had service wiht AT&T for a period of time, like a week or so. The letter he received from AT&T welcoming him as a new customer was dated after the date they say his service was terminated at his request.

Before he actually used the phone again, he called AT&T to verify that he was indeed all set up as their customer. I wonder if something happened as the result of that call? He did speak with someone in his own language, so he is certain there was no miscommunication on his part. The other person was not a native speaker of his language, but did speak quite well.

There is a chance I am missing something, but I think I am telling it right. I'll say one thing for sure: It sure is harder to be sure of the all the details when the details concern something that is not your own personal business!

I think the complaint to the FCC and Attorney general is the way to go. Also perhaps the PUC, but they may be more concerned with local calling rather than international...

My friend wants to do the right thing in this matter. I don't think he is the kind to attempt to pay nothing. He might even give up and pay the whole thing in the end, and this would be unfortunate! He is being hit by a crazy bill and neither verizon or AT&T have any interest to see the situation for what it is. There is something pretty wrong with this picture...it is on the verge of dishonest the way both these huge companies deal with the little guy.

It's scary really. With a calling plan you can call abroad for under 10 cents per minute just about anywhere in the world. Yet, without a plan they can charge a person more than 30 times the plan rate, and they don't even have to advise you that you are unknowingly running up a $1,000++ bill. While the costs of service at the supplier end is the same. Putting this into perspective, an hour of talking that with a plan would cost less than $6, costs $180+ without a plan... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Then there is the unknown related to the language barrier...which should have been minimized when talking to AT&T because they have customer service reps that speak a number of foreign tongues...

Guess my words here are proving my mind is indeed numb! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Glenn9643 · Feb 23, 2004

Henro,

You've gotten some good advise, and I just wanted to second Bird's mention of your public utilities commission. I've had a problem or two when I resorted to contacting the MS Public Service commissioners and had immediate response. They are probably your closest link in this sort of thing and generally want to help their constituents. You might find less red tape and a more sympathetic ear than at the federal level to start with...

Junkman · Feb 23, 2004

I switched from one long distance carrier to another and within a month, I was slammed back onto the original one. I just refused to pay the bill until they could provide proof that I had made the request to be put back with the original carrier. They couldn't provide the proof, so I never paid the bill. They threatened court action and I said... "see you in court".... I deal with reasonable people reasonably and unreasonable people not at all! They have no incentive to be reasonable, so they just won't be. You have to be just as stubborn. As long as he pays the basic charges on the bill, he can leave the long distance charges in dispute forever. At some time in the future, someone will be reasonable and make a settlement. Until then, time is on your side.... sit back and have a beer..... Besides, I like seeing you being frustrated...... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Payback...... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hakim · Feb 23, 2004

( ( At some time in the future, someone will be reasonable and make a settlement. ) )

You would think so. But at least with ATT it probably never will happen. There is a SYSTEM, utterly devoid of human reason, let alone courtesy or compassion.

We got into a horrific dispute with ATT about ten years ago, over a bill that we did not owe. We had been an 800 number customer for more than 10 years, and in that time paid them at least $10,000 in fees. We finally changed providers to save money. ATT claimed we had to pay for a full additional year due to a "contract." It was one of the idiotic bogus deals. We also demanded that they provide a copy of the “contract”. They never could. But they go after you anyway.

Without going into the mind-numbing details, suffice it to say that we called and wrote and wrote and called --- for FIVE YEARS. We could not get it resolved. Virtually every contact, verbal or written, was to a different person in another office, in another state, and ultimately, in other COUNTRIES!

Finally, just by happenstance, we became good friends with a couple from New Jersey, who -- lo and behold -- worked for ATT. In fact, believe it not, the lady's actual JOB, was the SUPERVISOR of resolving customer complaints! Naturally, we related our tale of woe. She dutifully took down all of the details and confidently told us that she would "get it taken care of."

Almost nine months later, she too, GAVE UP.

But wait, the story is not quite over. I went to Wabash College, which it happens is also where a man by the name of Robert Allen attended. At the time of my problems, he was the President and CEO of ATT. He was serving as President of the College Board of Trustees. Due to some work I did on college committees, I had his personal home and office phone and fax numbers. Tee hee!

Just for the HECK of it, I called his personal office number and got his assistant. I related my collegiate relationship with her boss, and asked her help. She was very apologetic, and warm, and promised she would indeed get things moving to solve this terrible breach of common sense. I never heard from her or her boss again.

It is an almost mystical corruption of the human mind that business ethics are so demolished that situations like can even exist. Yet, as we all know, these kinds of tales have become commonplace.

But, there is no one to force them to do otherwise.

The only consolation I got out of it was that I NEVER paid almost $900. I didn’t owe it, so I of course felt no guilt.

At that time, ATT did not (or were not allowed) to report delinquent and non-paid telephone charges on your credit report. So, although I have impeccable credit, I was not penalized in any way. I would make sure that ATT cannot or will not report to the credit bureaus. Losing your good credit for 8-12 years, even over $2 or $3,000, is not a fair trade, IMO.

Good luck! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BillyP · Feb 23, 2004

I'm with a privately own telephone company. In order to change long distance providers, I have to go to their office and fill out paperwork.

I've always took this as a hindrance but maybe it's a blessing /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Junkman · Feb 23, 2004

(

.........................

At that time, ATT did not (or were not allowed) to report delinquent and non-paid telephone charges on your credit report. So, although I have impeccable credit, I was not penalized in any way. I would make sure that ATT cannot or will not report to the credit bureaus. Losing your good credit for 8-12 years, even over $2 or $3,000, is not a fair trade, IMO.

Good luck! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

This is one reason to NEVER give anyone that doesn't have an absolute legal reason to have your social security number. Telephone companies and other big companies that you do business with will ask for it, but I have always denied them the privilege of having it. If they say that they need it for a credit check, then I say that they can ask for a deposit, or that I will accept a COD account. I never give my SS number to anyone that doesn't have a absolute legitimate reason to have it. Today, if you are stopped for a traffic violation, the officer will sometimes ask for the number to run a check on you. I wouldn't even give it to him/her! If they insist, I would just say that I don't know it, because I don't have any reason to have it committed to memory. My license is all that I need to supply. Now, many states are refusing to renew your drivers license unless you provide your social security number. I believe that this is illegal, but I believe that it might have been part of the Homeland Security Act. You know the one that did away with the Bill of Rights!!!!

frank_f15 · Feb 23, 2004

as stated here before , i do beleive that when u switch carriers thereis supposed to be a third party for verification., i applaude u for trying to help, it can be very frustrating. good luck.

BXMMCC · Feb 24, 2004

Even tho it's international, contact the PUC.

And, when we switched, we had to wait for a third party witness as has earlier been stated. Demand a copy of the audio tape. Also, if and when Verizon passes it off to a collection agency - which they did in my case - immediately respond with a dispute.

PBMAX · Feb 24, 2004

Hey Junkman hate it that your friend is in Phone H***. Best of LUCK with these 2 Giants.

As to state requireing Soscial on your DL. Alabama started that a couple years before 911. I at first refused and was told they would not issue the license until I did. Nor could I purchase new tag with out a DL. So I did insist they not print it on the DL. That they had no problem with. But I aggree they should have no right to force it out of you. Funy back when I was NAVY I told them I was not allowed to provide it do to security clearance (BS but it worked at the time)

This is more for those who call National...
I had a problem with my Londistance carrier constantly changing at the old house.
So I called the local co and told them that I would like all Longdistance services cancelled and that they were to deny activation of such with out a written letter from me post marked from my home address.

No problem says they.... but what willl you do for longdistance?
I unlike your friend have litttle or no need to call LD.
So I use my cell on the rare occasion and told them as much... Free nights and weekends ain't they grand???

They were none to happy. I used to get all kinds of letters after that from MCI,ATT and so on. I would just drop them in the ROUND FILE.

My new house we have ALltell and it is longdistance 1/2 mile down the road. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
So LD service is must.... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Once I finally get DSL of some kind I'll try one of the new internet Telaphony services. There is one out by Kazza that is free.... i'm sure it has drawbacks, but who knows.... We use it at work for inner office calls coast to coast. It can be noisy and hard to here over now and then...

Junkman · Feb 24, 2004

( Hey Junkman hate it that your friend is in Phone H***. Best of LUCK with these 2 Giants. )

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

PBMAX · Feb 25, 2004

JunkMan once this is settled ( hopfully for his favor)maybe your pardner would be better off with a calling card...Than dealing with Slamming and

I used them for yrs in the early 90's At the time I usually goy better rates than than you could get over a phone.

I used to call from alll over the world , Spain, Rohdes Greece, Rio /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif, Italy, Back in the NAVY DAYS....you name it... I had one that was $.5 per min.