Pictures of our new deck

[jinman]

Nice to hear Lowe's is giving discounts. I wonder if it's a local thing, or if they are becomeing more contractor friendly. I've received discounts when buying from them, but it's hit or miss, and nowhere near 20%!!!!

On you diagram, when you say stringer, is that going to be a header type beam with two dimensional pieces of lumber and plywood between them? or a gluelam type beam? The 3 1/2 inch width has me confused. The run is short enogh that a gluelam would work, but it would have to be protected, or treated to withstand the elements.

I'm also curious about yoru post placement at the corner of the building, where the two new decks come together. It sort of looks like you have extneded the support beam past the post and cantelevered it out to where you will have to run your suports for the outside corner of the deck. If that post was lined up with the outside edge of the house, then you would have direct support for that beam and joists. If you can eliminate a cantelevered attachement for a main, load bearing beam, I would sure do so.

Eddie

Eddie, thanks so much for posting to comment on my deck. I take your suggestions very seriously. I only wish you were close enough to make it possible for me to hire you to do the job.

Lowes has a policy of putting thier orders over $2000 into their quote system. Within 24 hours (most times less) you get a qoute on your materials that is competitive and a big savings over retail price. Some things are not so much discounted and others are up to 30% less. My overall savings on my BOM was 19.7%. For the average homeowner, that's a bundle. Not only was my order discounted, but everyone behind the commercial orders desk seemed genuinely interested in helping me. I'm sure the fact that I gave them an organized list of materials with part numbers included was also in my favor. All they had to do was go down my list and enter the data. I think they only had to look up the UPCs on about 6 items.

My "stringer" beam dimensions at 3-1/2" should have you confused. It's really 3-5/8". I'm using Simpson CCQ46SDS2.5 column caps. They are made for a post width of 6" and the "saddle" for the beam is 3-5/8" wide. That will allow me to scab together two treated 2x10s (3" total width) and put a 1x10 rough cedar facia on the outside (see attached diagrams). The Simpson brackets are actually made for a 4x6 post, but I want 6x6 so my posts will look like the existing ones.

I think you are dead right that I need 4 posts on the south side deck instead of 3. That will allow me to go 8-1/2'-8-1/2'-8-1/2' center-to-center between the posts and put them all the way to the corners of the deck. I have extra posts and extra Simpson brackets, so I'm okay with changing the design a bit. Thank you very much for making that suggestion. I'm much happier with the extra post and stronger structure. Great suggestion! My new diagram is attached.

I also believe that I don't need 6x6 posts under the landing for the steps at the end of the existing deck. I might be better served to use 4x4 cedar posts there. 6x6 posts might look a little "chunky." What do you think?

Again, thanks for your suggestions. I'm all ears.

 

[EddieWalker]

I never thought about using a Cedar vineer on front of you beams, but now it makes perfect sense to me. I'm a huge fan of Simpson products and use them all the time. In most cases, when a deck has issues, it's because the builder didn't use brackets and instead, toe nailed the lumber together, or supported it with nails. Eventually, those methods work their way apart.

I can't say that you needed another post, or if just moving that one out a big farther is all you needed to do. But in my opinion, stronger is always better, and another post will make it all much stronger. I think that having that post there, where it will provide direct support for your deck on the outside corner will proved a huge change to your engineering, and stability of the deck.

Did your contractor see your plan or where you wanted to place your posts?

There is one part of your type of deck that is critical to get right, and that's the ledger board. It will hold up the deck, and hold the deck in position to the house. If done right, you should never have any issues, but if done wrong, it will cause you nightmares.

It has to be secured to the framing of the house. First choice would be bolts, but most of the time, that's just not possible. Second choice is to use lag bolts with washers. I like half inch, and I like them long. Depending on the siding, if you leave the siding on, or cut it out, and the size of the studs, will determine what size lags to buy. Of course, hot dip galvanized or stainless are the only two options there.

If the siding is flat and you don't need to remove it, then pre drill the holes and fill them with silicone before running the lag bolts into those holes. Water is always the enemy, and this is good insurance. They will need to temporarily attach the legder board to figure out where they will attach it to anyway, and you always want to drill pilot holes for large lag bolts to prevent splitting anything, so it's a simple thing to add the silicone.

If you remove part of the siding, then sealing it up again becomes the most important part of the job. Silicone and flashing are the only ways to keep the water out. Flashing needs to be tucked in under the siding and above the ledger board. This is a real pain to get right, and it eats up the hours.

The other option is to use brackets, which are plenty strong enough, but only if you have enough of them, and they are installed properly. Not knowing the building, it probably wouldn't be the way I'd go if I could lag bolt the ledger board on. I bid on a repair job that another contractor had done, but didn't use any brackets, or lag bolts. He used ten penny nails to attach the ledger board to the end grain of the rafter tails on a roof. It started coming apart and leaking after just a few months. I don't know if I'll get the job or if the bid was just for ammunition in the lawsuit, but to fix it, I'll have to redo it with brackets to get it all tight and eliminate the movement.

I don't think there is sucha thing as too bulky in a post. I consider a 6x6 to be the perfect size for just about everything, but of course, clients don't always want to pay for them. If they do, and they agree with me on the size being right, then that's all I'll use. On the wedding pavilion that I'm building right now, I used 6x6 posts to support everything, but then I will wrap them with 1x6's on the flats and then put 2x2 in the corners to build them up even more. For this job, bigger is better!!!

Take lots of pics and be sure to ask lots of questions. If something doesn't make sense, or feel right, then it might not be. In every case where I've come in to redo, or finish another guys work, the client always tell me that they had their doubts right from the beginning, but "HOPED" that it would get better. It never does. Eventually they disapear, or they get fired from the job. On one bathroom remodel, it was 15 years ago that the last contractor disapeared on them, and they sort of gave up on finishing that bathroom, or ever using it again.

When I build a deck, I only use screws. It's more work, and more money, but then never fail or work their way out. I've never had a client tell me not to use screws, and I've never bid a deck job that I didn't get. Star head screws are the greates things ever, especially when using an impact driver!!!! All my brackets get screwd together, and all my decking is screwed down. The deck that I just finished for this pavilion has 2x8's for the decking, and I put three, 3 inch screws on every joist. It's 36 feet long and the joists are on 16 inch centers with allot of extra joists in the middle where I'm cutting in a design of a compass symbol. Nailing it together would have cut the time in half, but they've seen nailed decks before and how they look after a few years. When given the option, and knowing the results, screws are the only way to go.

Eddie

 

[jinman]

Eddie, thanks again for your comments. For the ledger board, we are removing the siding and plan on using 3" square-head deck screws to attach it. It turns out that there is studs only on part of the south side of my house. The rest of the ledger board will be screwed into floor joist at the level shown in the attached construction picture of the east and south side of my house. There is a solid header/ledger already there for the floor joists at the same level as the balcony on the east side. For 1/2 the width on the south side, we'll screw into 2x4 studs. Do you not think coated deck screws will work for attaching the ledger? that's what they used on my original deck as seen in the second photo. I'll get some lag screws if you think they are necessary, but I figured coated deck screws would work and we could use more of them to compensate for their smaller diameter.

Also, the contractor called the local steel company and ordered 50' of flashing. It will extend 6" up under the siding and out over the top of the ledger with a 1/2" drip edge. The drip edge will have to be trimmed above each deck joist, but that shouldn't be much trouble. The contractor wanted formed flashing instead of flat flashing because, like you, he said flat flashing was a pain to work with. I think he knows best and told him I'd be happy to pay the extra cost for the formed flashing. My existing deck just used normal flashing and I remember the framers had to bend it over the top of the ledger board, but it has performed well to keep water out of the wall below.

BTW: I'm going to print out photos to give to the carpenters when they come on Monday. I figure they will appreciate being able to see the house construction and what they are building up against.

Oh yes. . . I'm using screws for everything except maybe the hurricane ties that we'll use between the beam and the deck joists. I want the hangers on the ledger to be screwed on, but I bought Simpson hot dipped galvanized nails for the hurricane ties and where nails are appropriate.

 

[EddieWalker]

...plan on using 3" square-head deck screws to attach it.

...Do you not think coated deck screws will work for attaching the ledger? that's what they used on my original deck as seen in the second photo.

I switched to square head deck screws a couple years ago. I think they are twice as easy to put in over philips heads. Recently I discovered star head deck screws. These are easily TEN TIMES easier to drive in !!!!!!!! I know you're not doing the work, but if anybody is curious, I highly recomend them.

Screws, like nails, are not load bearing. While screws have more holding power then nails, and they don't work their way out over time, they do not provide the strength to support a load. Imagine the way a house is built. Every peice of lumber is resting on top of another. It's all held there by gravity. The nails are just ot make sure it stays in place. When working on exterior structures, like decks, screws do a better job then nails, but the principle of putting wood on top of wood and relying on gravity to hold it there still applies.

The ledger board is a load bearing member that is attached to the side of a building or wall. Since there is no support under it, the fasteners have to be strong enough to handle the load. Remember, it's not just the weight of the deck and the number of people on it, but the twisting, pulling effect from the elements. While I'm sure that enough screws might get the job done, I don't know this for a fact. I also know that plenty of ledger boards have been installed with nails and screws over the years, and they have not failed.

Are you using a 2x12 for your ledger board? If I was doing it, I'd stager the lag bolts on two foot spacings on the top, and then another line on the bottom with the same spacing, but between the top row.

Considering that you are spending thousands of dollors to do this, an extra hundred bucks on lag bolts is pretty cheap insurance.

I'm impressed that your contractor takes flashing so seriously. What does he say about lag bolts over screws?

Eddie

 

[quackaddict]

There is one part of your type of deck that is critical to get right, and that's the ledger board.

What do you think about free-standing decks? I don't really like the idea of having to tear into my house. I think that it just makes it easier for mold/mildew to get into the house.

 

[jinman]

Recently I discovered star head deck screws. These are easily TEN TIMES easier to drive in !!!!!!!!

I have purchased only square drive and star head screws. The only drawback I've ever seen to these screws is that if the lumber is wet and tight, you can twist off the heads of the screws pretty easy.

Are you using a 2x12 for your ledger board?

We are going to use the same treated 2x8s as the deck floor joists. That's the way my other deck is done and it seems to be holding very well.

If I was doing it, I'd stager the lag bolts on two foot spacings on the top, and then another line on the bottom with the same spacing, but between the top row.

I'm thinking that would be easy to accomplish since the deck will have joists on 24" centers. Heck, I could even add them after the deck is built since the area is always exposed. I like that idea, Eddie. I will try to find the right lag bolts and stay away from the soft run-of-the-mill variety. With treated wood, you need the hot dipped or galvanized. Thanks for the tip.

I'm impressed that your contractor takes flashing so seriously. What does he say about lag bolts over screws?

I am pretty pleased with the way this guy works so far. He's a bit terse in speech, but very thoughtful and seems to be genuinely concerned that his customers are happy. Even the concrete guys that work for him were very critical in getting their forms set square to my house and perfectly square on the corners. I watched them tear out and redo stakes because square was off by just a little over 1/4" on 20'. They cleaned up every bit of their forms and every nail before they left. The last thing they asked was if I was satisfied with the job.

I haven't talked to the contractor about lag screws yet, but I'll go out today and try to find some. I'm thinking 3" is probably on the short side since that would give me slightly less than a 1" bite due to the sheathing. Since the lags are tapered points, that's really only about 1/2" grip. I doubt I'll be able to find 3-1/2", so I'll probably look for 4". The flat washers shouldn't be a problem to find, but you never know.

 

[jimmyj]

Lots of interesting tips from Eddie!

Jim, that house is just calling out for a deck where you're building, it's going to look great. Let's see some pics when it's done, mandatory in the pics of course will be a lawn chair and cool beverage! Oh yes, and a funky hat of some sort.

 

[jinman]

Oh yes, and a funky hat of some sort.

Those who know me also know that I specialize in "funky hats." I have one that's particulary appropriate.

 

[MarkV]

Jim it sounds like a fun project that will add nicely to your house.

I agree with Eddie that lag bolts for your ledger are the way to go. Here at least screws would not meet code for that part of the build. Screws are great for many applications but actually have less shear strength than nails. A mistake you often see is people using screws to attach Simpson joist hangers rather than the special joist hanger nails for ease of installation. Screws defeat the engineering loads of the hangers and a good inspector will not pass them. Using screws on your column caps is fine because they are under compression and there are not shear forces involved.

One area of your build we haven't discussed that I was wondering about. Where your new South side deck joins the new East side. Is your plan to extend the ledger on the East side past the house to act as part of the beam for the East side joists? That is what we would do by doubling up the ledger with the last joist on the South side. That is a corner of the house to pay extra attention to the flashing. The extended ledger can act as a path for water to travel back under the flashing at the house.

Being a big fan of screen porches I'll throw this in as food for thought. If you ever might consider adding a roof and screen porch on any area of the deck this would be the time to double up the joists and/or add an extra post where the porch walls would set. May not be of any interest to you two, just one of those things where an extra $40 bucks now can save a lot of work later.

Keep the photos coming.

MarkV

 

[kennyd]

I switched to square head deck screws a couple years ago. I think they are twice as easy to put in over philips heads. Recently I discovered star head deck screws. These are easily TEN TIMES easier to drive in !!!!!!!! I know you're not doing the work, but if anybody is curious, I highly recomend them.

Screws, like nails, are not load bearing. While screws have more holding power then nails, and they don't work their way out over time, they do not provide the strength to support a load. Imagine the way a house is built. Every peice of lumber is resting on top of another. It's all held there by gravity. The nails are just ot make sure it stays in place. When working on exterior structures, like decks, screws do a better job then nails, but the principle of putting wood on top of wood and relying on gravity to hold it there still applies.

The ledger board is a load bearing member that is attached to the side of a building or wall. Since there is no support under it, the fasteners have to be strong enough to handle the load. Remember, it's not just the weight of the deck and the number of people on it, but the twisting, pulling effect from the elements. While I'm sure that enough screws might get the job done, I don't know this for a fact. I also know that plenty of ledger boards have been installed with nails and screws over the years, and they have not failed.

Are you using a 2x12 for your ledger board? If I was doing it, I'd stager the lag bolts on two foot spacings on the top, and then another line on the bottom with the same spacing, but between the top row.

Considering that you are spending thousands of dollors to do this, an extra hundred bucks on lag bolts is pretty cheap insurance.

I'm impressed that your contractor takes flashing so seriously. What does he say about lag bolts over screws?

Eddie

Eddie, have you been keeping up with the latest "Structural Screws"? There are a few makers of them if you Google the term.