plumbing/framing question

[Dutch445]

have a new house that needs some work done before we move in. one of the projects is the 2nd floor bathroom that has a leaking stand up shower.(no tub)

my hope is to move the toilet that is next to the shower, and remove the wall between the shower and toilet, making room for a tub, and build a tile wall
surround. (it looks like i'll have 59.5 inches if i remove the sheetrock)

the toilet needs to move about 2' or so, and will end up turning 90 degrees and be put on the end wall adjacent to the far end of the bathtub.

the question has to do with the 2x10 joists and the 3" drain pipe. I will have to reroute thru 2 of the joists. currently the 3" runs between 2 joists (parallel) and into a stack going down thru a wall. directly below the new toilet location is a hallway alongside the stairwell. this is a small bathroom and i don't want to tear out walls other than that 1 shower wall. I am reading articles referencing the 1/3 rule for a hole in a joist, so i am asking if i should do this or come up with another plan.

just for reference, as you go into the bathroom now, there is first a 30" vanity, then a 32" wall (LH shower wall), the shower, then the 2nd wall (RH shower wall) then the toilet, all 3 fixtures on the 1 wall. The shower and vanity drains are actually above the downstairs hall closet, so plumbing above that is easy, as i have already torn that closet ceiling out due to the water damage there.

 

[Gator6x4]

Think steel. Do you have a steel fabricator shop or steel resaler place close by. Purchase four 9 3/34 inch ( Joist probably 9 and 3/4)( ten (10) inches if joist 10 inches wide)(4) steel plates 1/8 or 1/4 inch thick three or four foot long. Have them fabricate, large hole, 3 inches and bore or punch small holes. Place the plate on the joist, mark and then bore the holes for bolts to go through the joist. Place one of the plates on each side of the joist and secure firmly in place. Will probably exceed weight bearing load of what you have now with the regular floor joist.

 

[Dutch445]

I have seen stuff like that available, pre-made.
we used to have a metal fab shop 2 doors down
but he closed a couple years ago and went south.
it was nice having him close, and had all the right
stuff for milling machines.

good idea, might be the ticket here.

 

[JB4310]

I've seen plumbers hack out 50% of a joist, after the house is all together not really a big deal if it's not under a wall, but even then everything is locked together, nothing is gonna move.

But instead of cutting the joist with a square cut from the top or bottom, how about drilling a hole in the center just big enough for the pipe. May be tight to work in there and require an extra coupling or two, but would leave more of the joists rating intact

Just a thought.

Oh yeah use PVC pipe where ever you are replacing/ installing the pipe.

Edit:
I just reread Gators reply, that's an interesting approach but more suited for bridge construction! Not a bad idea by any means, just a little overkill IMO.

JB

 

[nickel plate]

3/4" plywood or OSB would work for gusseting the 2x10s where you intend to cut the 3" hole. Use Simpson Strong-Tie engineered wood screws that are available at most larger hardware stores. Through bolting the gussets can lead to further weakening of the joist.

 

[EddieWalker]

How far is the span of the floor joists?

A 2x10 is only 9 1/4 inches tall. The 3 inch pipe will need a 3 1/2 hole to fit tight, and bigger if you need to "fit" it into the space. That will leave you with less then three inches of wood on either side of your floor joist. In my opinion, that is going to result in sagging over time. The farther out from the wall down below, and the more to the center of the span, the more it will sag.

Metal plates on either side will carry the load, but you really need to consult with an engineer to know how thick, and how long you need it to be.

Plywood glued and screwed to either side of the joist will also help, but it has to be long enough to carry the load, and we're just guessing without an engineer to calculate what is needed.

Tubs are 60 inches long. Where are you going to get that extra half inch?

Do you really want or need a tub? I make a very good living removing tubs and putting in walk in showers. A nice walk in shower will sell a house over the very best bathtub!!!!

Eddie

 

[clemsonfor]

I've seen plumbers hack out 50% of a joist, after the house is all together not really a big deal if it's not under a wall, but even then everything is locked together, nothing is gonna move.

But instead of cutting the joist with a square cut from the top or bottom, how about drilling a hole in the center just big enough for the pipe. May be tight to work in there and require an extra coupling or two, but would leave more of the joists rating intact

Just a thought.

Oh yeah use PVC pipe where ever you are replacing/ installing the pipe.

Edit:
I just reread Gators reply, that's an interesting approach but more suited for bridge construction! Not a bad idea by any means, just a little overkill IMO.

JB

You havent seen any of your bathrooms on Homles on Homes have you!! :ashamed:


These are the things he says not to do!!!

I have a similar problem to the OP, at least i think i will. Im gonna totally reconfigure a bath and i know with my luck the toilet or shower drian is gonna go perpendicular to the joists. 2 i can see not as such a big deal but what about 6 or so?

 

[Dutch445]

Thanks

my supply guy said his tubs rough in at 59.5", and until I tear off the
shower wall, i won't know exactly what I have, but we figured we'd have
enough after we deducted for the tile/backer board/sheet rock on the
1 wall of the shower.
this bathroom is upstairs in a cape style home, (a modular built in 2002)
and there are 2 very large bedrooms upstairs and the 1 bathroom. there is
going to be my SO's daughter and her baby up there, so since the shower is leaking
anyway, i thought if I had room i'd put in the tub. (yes, there are 2 other full baths in the house downstairs). The baby takes a bath just about every nite
before bed so I was doing it for him. Around here, i think most want the full tub/shower instead of walk in shower.

the joists i would want to pass thru are probably just over 13' long directly over a hallway parallel to the stairway. there are 2 maybe 3 that span that far, and the next joists are either supported by the stairwell framing/wall or that closet/wall that lines this hallway. 3" stack drops down in the closet/hall wall (2x6 i believe)

i guess another option would be to run the drain parallell to the joists in it's new location, and drop a bulkhead and drop down under the joists and then laterally into that wall to the pipe. this would be an area i think could work because it's within 3' of the center marriage wall, where there is an open doorway between the kitchen/dining room and hallway going to the front door. i think i have a bulkhead at that marriage wall any, will check later.

 

[gengine]

In the past, I've "laminated" boards together to remedy this. Cut a piece of 1/2" OSB to 9-1/4" x 4' , liquid nail it to your joist, then put up another 2"x10"x4' also glued to the piece of OSB. Then nail it from both sides. Do this to all joists. Your pipe should be centered if you can. If your boards are gonna hit the wall before they are centered, try to get them sitting on the wall. The OSB not having a grain pattern will stop sagging while more than doubling the strength and the glue also adds strength while preventing any squeaks.

 

[Kays Supply]

Keep in mind it takes at least 9" to rough in a 90 and floor flange for a toilet. Unless you run your pipe dead flat you won't be able to go very far from where it is. Also your hole will be a slot in the bottom of the joist.

 

[nickel plate]

have a new house that needs some work done before we move in. one of the projects is the 2nd floor bathroom that has a leaking stand up shower.

Might be more than you care to go into but don't you have a fit and finish guarantee of some sort on your new home? When I retired a few years ago out here in California, my company (Centex Homes) offered a ten year F&F warranty which pretty much made us property managers for those homes that turned into rentals.

 

[nickel plate]

Do you really want or need a tub? I make a very good living removing tubs and putting in walk in showers. A nice walk in shower will sell a house over the very best bathtub!!!!Eddie

Eddie,
You're absolutely correct, a walk in shower with a bench/seat is becoming a necessity for those of us who are getting up there in years. No more climbing in and out of a slippery shower/tub or the confines of a small corner shower.

 

[JimRB]

When we built our house I wanted a 66" bathtub. The only brand I could find was Kohler and my wife has issues witht he Kohler family and their horses. We did a 60" tun and it is too short for my 70" body. I wish i had done the 66" tub.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Is there a possible route down from the toilet that doesn't go through a joist? What I would be thinking is take the most direct route for the toilet, then run the drains for the sink and tub to where ever the toilet drain ends up. The tub and sink can use 1.5" pipe, which is going to be much easier to route than 3".

The other thing I would be thinking about is whether adding a joist and adjusting the spacing might solve it. In other words, think about what it would look like if you were building the house new, and about what it would take to get there from where you are. I just feel that cutting that big a hole in a joist is a hack thing to do.

On the other hand -- it's your house and you're going to live there. Cutting the joist is not going to make the house fall down, it might make the ceiling sag or the floor squeak. If it does, you're going to have to fix it. Fixing it might mean cutting open the ceiling downstairs and adding a joist. Whether you do that now or a year from now, it's the same amount of work. So there's something to be said for cutting the hole and taking a wait-and-see attitude about whether more reinforcement is necessary.

Before cutting anything I would have all the fittings laid out and carefully measured to insure that everything fits and you can get the slope you need. A big pipe like that will be fussy about where exactly it wants to run.

What I wouldn't do is a fancy tile job in the new bathroom with it being firmly supported. Tile on a floor that flexes will crack for sure.

 

[Dutch445]

Might be more than you care to go into but don't you have a fit and finish guarantee of some sort on your new home? When I retired a few years ago out here in California, my company (Centex Homes) offered a ten year F&F warranty which pretty much made us property managers for those homes that turned into rentals.

my mistake, new only means "new to me"
house was built in 2002.

 

[Dutch445]

Is there a possible route down from the
toilet that doesn't go through a joist? What I would be thinking is take the
most direct route for the toilet, then run the drains for the sink and tub to
where ever the toilet drain ends up. The tub and sink can use 1.5" pipe,
which is going to be much easier to route than 3".

The other thing I would be thinking about is whether adding a joist and
adjusting the spacing might solve it. In other words, think about what it
would look like if you were building the house new, and about what it would
take to get there from where you are. I just feel that cutting that big a hole
in a joist is a hack thing to do.

On the other hand -- it's your house and you're going to live there.
Cutting the joist is not going to make the house fall down, it might make the ceiling sag or the floor squeak. If it does, you're going to have to fix it. Fixing it might mean cutting open the ceiling downstairs and adding a joist. Whether you do that now or a year from now, it's the same amount of work. So there's something to be said for cutting the hole and taking a wait-and-see attitude about whether more reinforcement is necessary.

Before cutting anything I would have all the fittings laid out and carefully measured to insure that everything fits and you can get the slope you need. A big pipe like that will be fussy about where exactly it wants to run.

What I wouldn't do is a fancy tile job in the new bathroom with it being firmly supported. Tile on a floor that flexes will crack for sure.

i went over last nite doing some sheetrock touchup through the house, filling
nail holes etc, and took another quick look and there is no way to change the
stack location because it's in this 6" wall alongside the hallway, probably built
that way to house the stack, along with heat ducts.
then i looked up in the closet ceiling where i removed some rock, and it even
looks like it'd be a challenge to move the shower drain to where it would
need to be for a tub, puts it in an even tougher place so maybe this isn't
going to work out. i have a contractor coming tomorrow to offer his advice
on the subject, we'll see what he says. certainly have to remove the tiled
shower surround as that does leak, and i would want to waterproof that
entire floor area before i rebuild anyway, with whatever i go with for fixtures.

 

[Dutch445]

When we built our house I wanted a 66" bathtub. The only brand I could find was Kohler and my wife has issues witht he Kohler family and their horses. We did a 60" tun and it is too short for my 70" body. I wish i had done the 66" tub.

in one of my previous homes, we put an addition on the house on a small lake,
added 2 bedrooms and a bathroom. framed it for a 72" jetted tub, with tile
flange. it came out beautiful! and plenty of leg room. :thumbsup: