Post Driver Usage Observations

[reasley]

I have now been tinkering with the post driver for a couple of days and have some observations that may be of use to others.

Postdriver: Shaver HD-10, standard positioners (i.e., not hydraulic) Shaver post driver, hole digger, stump grinder, log splitter

Tractor: John Deere 4300 HST (32hp diesel, less at PTO), 8.8 GPM hydraulics for attachments (Note Shaver lists 12 GPM needed, but less will simply slow rise by negligible amount; just make sure that PSI requirements are met)

Posts driven: New posts, 6"+ x 8' (American Timber and Steel these are turned, not "bark-stripped" posts -- very nice, very straight. Download their catalog at this URL for an informative read.) and used electric company poles (up to 8 & 3/4")

Observations:

1. There must be some sort of what we used to call in the Southeast "English" (like putting "English" on a pool ball) that needs to be done to ensure that the posts drive straight. Note that I am talking about straight, even ground, without rocks. And -- the offset is about 2 degrees in one direction, but it's there (note: get about a dozen of the magnetic angle indicators from Harbor Freight when they are on sale for $2 or so. They are great for leveling drivers and posts and very precise). What I'm saying is, that when you have the driver perfectly aligned at both directions, your post is perfectly aligned under the driver in both directions, you drive and, when finished, the post is slightly off in one direction, about 2 degrees. Any help from those who have doing this from a while?

2. There is a serious tendency to splinter the posts -- both new and used ones, but more on used. The reason is that, when the driver comes down, if it does not hit the post square in all directions, it has a tendency to "deflect" and hit anout 2 inches off center, which causes the force to be applied differentially to the post. I worked up a solution last night, I think. I made a post "cap" to be put on the top of each post prior to driving. The outer dimensions are exactly 8 & 3/4" so it slides easily in my driver and the pipe is around 1/4. I made two round tops out of 3/8" flat and welded them together for a 3/4" driving surface. Will try it out today after grinding a bit but I think that it is going to accomplish two things: 1) reduce/eliminate splintering and 2) even with off-center hits, the post will still receive the full effect. We'll see.

3. The time savings with these things is immense. Once everything is aligned, less than 2 minutes per post to drive a wood post 3' in. Amazing. And you would not believe how tight the post is -- and you're completely done.

4. The biggest time spent is aligning the tractor to the precise driving spot and dropping the driver to that spot. That is why, I'm sure, that Shaver sells the positioners an mini-positioners shown in the enclosed attachment, If you are running a lot of fence lines, this would be the way to go. Unfortunately, they are very expensive attachments, so I will probably just build one down the road.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

How much does a unit like you have cost? Sounds like it works well in the right type of ground.

 

[6sunset6]

I have read about 2 ways to keep posts straight, and have seen units that do both.
Drill a pilot hole , I think this would work best but it's a pretty fancy rig. Swings the pilot in and out. The tractor does not move between pilot drill and post pound.
A post clamp something with rollers that clamps the post to the vertical beam and still allows it to be pounded in. better than nothing.
Might be better to use crooked posts ,then it does not matter so much.
Like the old locust or ceder split ones.

 

[reasley]

How much does a unit like you have cost? Sounds like it works well in the right type of ground.

Good morning, Brian --

They vary tremedously in price (low $2000 to near $20K). I started looking at them intently a couple of years ago (prior to the definite need for it) and concluded that the Shaver HD-10 was probably my best option based on needs/size of my tractor/etc. [Note: go to www.postdriver.com for a good listing of them and, specifically, the comparison graphic at http://www.postdriver.com/ppdComp.pdf ]

However, the HD-10 is around $3500 and I wanted to spend less (don't we all?). So, I kind of laid low, thinking that I wouldn't buy until I absolutely needed one thinking that maybe I could find one used (which is not often, at least geographically close).

Anyway, I stumbled across a used one last week on-line, it was about 2 hours from me, so I called. The individual wanted $2000, but indicated that he was anxious to sell, so he quoted me $1500. Went to look (with trailer in hand), he demonstrated it, I bought. I feel pretty confident that I could have negotiated it down further on-site, but it was a great (and very fair) price already, so I bought it at the on-phone quoted price, and both of us feel very good about the transaction.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Observations:
1. There must be some sort of what we used to call in the Southeast "English" (like putting "English" on a pool ball) that needs to be done to ensure that the posts drive straight. Note that I am talking about straight, even ground, without rocks. And -- the offset is about 2 degrees in one direction, but it's there (note: get about a dozen of the magnetic angle indicators from Harbor Freight when they are on sale for $2 or so. They are great for leveling drivers and posts and very precise). What I'm saying is, that when you have the driver perfectly aligned at both directions, your post is perfectly aligned under the driver in both directions, you drive and, when finished, the post is slightly off in one direction, about 2 degrees. Any help from those who have doing this from a while?

2. There is a serious tendency to splinter the posts -- both new and used ones, but more on used. The reason is that, when the driver comes down, if it does not hit the post square in all directions, it has a tendency to "deflect" and hit anout 2 inches off center, which causes the force to be applied differentially to the post. I worked up a solution last night, I think. I made a post "cap" to be put on the top of each post prior to driving. The outer dimensions are exactly 8 & 3/4" so it slides easily in my driver and the pipe is around 1/4. I made two round tops out of 3/8" flat and welded them together for a 3/4" driving surface. Will try it out today after grinding a bit but I think that it is going to accomplish two things: 1) reduce/eliminate splintering and 2) even with off-center hits, the post will still receive the full effect. We'll see.

3. The time savings with these things is immense. Once everything is aligned, less than 2 minutes per post to drive a wood post 3' in. Amazing. And you would not believe how tight the post is -- and you're completely done.

reasley,
Take a look at my photos for Apr 30 2007. This clamped on assembly does wonders for keeping the post under control and should benefit #1,2. For additional anti splinter I crown the posts very slightly. I find also that usually small corrections - sometimes even slight tractor moves, must be made as the post starts in and progresses thru the 1st 6" or so. A little front/back, left/rt, and angular adjustment is effective and easy in this range. I give the post a critical look after each hit in the early stages of a drive.

I added about 50 lb to the driver on my HD8. Our ground can get pretty hard. The added weight makes a tremendous difference in driving 8 to 9" posts.
larry

 

[MikePA]

1. There must be some sort of what we used to call in the Southeast "English" (like putting "English" on a pool ball) that needs to be done to ensure that the posts drive straight.

My Worksaver has a bubble level that made it a lot easier to align the driver in both directions at once. Being off 2 degrees, more when it hit a rock, didn't bother me.

2. There is a serious tendency to splinter the posts -- both new and used ones, but more on used.

I drove 4" x 4" x 8' and the only time this happened was when there was a knot or a weak spot on the post.

3. The time savings with these things is immense.

Amen! Turns a multi step job using a phd into a 1 step job.

4. The biggest time spent is aligning the tractor to the precise driving spot and dropping the driver to that spot.

I drove all my posts by myself, so I agree. I loaned my driver to a friend and since he had a helper it didn't take as long.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Good morning, Brian --

They vary tremedously in price (low $2000 to near $20K). I started looking at them intently a couple of years ago (prior to the definite need for it) and concluded that the Shaver HD-10 was probably my best option based on needs/size of my tractor/etc. [Note: go to www.postdriver.com for a good listing of them and, specifically, the comparison graphic at http://www.postdriver.com/ppdComp.pdf ]

However, the HD-10 is around $3500 and I wanted to spend less (don't we all?). So, I kind of laid low, thinking that I wouldn't buy until I absolutely needed one thinking that maybe I could find one used (which is not often, at least geographically close).

Anyway, I stumbled across a used one last week on-line, it was about 2 hours from me, so I called. The individual wanted $2000, but indicated that he was anxious to sell, so he quoted me $1500. Went to look (with trailer in hand), he demonstrated it, I bought. I feel pretty confident that I could have negotiated it down further on-site, but it was a great (and very fair) price already, so I bought it at the on-phone quoted price, and both of us feel very good about the transaction.

For that price I could see it being worth while, but for the new price, you would need to set a lot of poles to make it worth while. I still can hardly believe that you are able to pound a wooden post into the ground without it shattering.

 

[reasley]

reasley,
Take a look at my photos for Apr 30 2007. This clamped on assembly does wonders for keeping the post under control and should benefit #1,2. For additional anti splinter I crown the posts very slightly. I find also that usually small corrections - sometimes even slight tractor moves, must be made as the post starts in and progresses thru the 1st 6" or so. A little front/back, left/rt, and angular adjustment is effective and easy in this range. I give the post a critical look after each hit in the early stages of a drive.

I added about 50 lb to the driver on my HD8. Our ground can get pretty hard. The added weight makes a tremendous difference in driving 8 to 9" posts.
larry

Good afternoon, Larry --

Incredible tips, all! I like the "tensioning rig" that you rigged up -- like you said, it's gotta work.

I agree on the crowning idea -- that should fix the problem. I just got in after using the driver again and I tried the metal "cap" that I mentioned earlier. It works great at concentrating the force on the top of the post, but the posts are still splintering a bit, even with it in use. So, what I think that I am going to do is a slight modification of your crowning idea. Instead of driving these 8' posts so that the height of the top of the fence post is where it needs to be, I think that I'm going to leave them about 2-6" long (depending on amount of splintering) and, before installing the horizontal boards, run a line and trip the tops.

I also think that the additional weight added is something that I need to do. I've got a 5 year old son that loves amusement rides, and he weighs about 50 pounds, well, anyway . . .

Again, thanks!

 

[reasley]

For that price I could see it being worth while, but for the new price, you would need to set a lot of poles to make it worth while. I still can hardly believe that you are able to pound a wooden post into the ground without it shattering.

Yes, that is a good point and, for a lot of individuals, it would not make sense. But I am restoring a horse farm in Central Texas that has the look of a Kentucky horse farm (and the wooden fences have much to do with that) and I see several advantages of the driver:

1. The old time/money equation. Driver = attach to tractor, grab a pile of posts with the forklift, set a fence line, align driver for each hole, pound post and you are done. Auger (PTO style, non-hydraulic) = attach to tractor, grab a pile of posts with the forklift, set a fence line, align auger to hole, start drilling, hit obstruction, go up and down, do it again, say "gosh, this isn't working" etc., get a guy up the road to drill the hole with his Beltec (incredible drill, by the way) and then your hole is done. Put in post, go to next hole. When all holes are done, take off your forklift, put your bucket on, get a pile of pea gravel (more materials=more money), center each pole, shovel in pea gravel, make sure it is level, and, after two or three rains, the post is still not as tight as a driven post.

2. Easy on-going maintenance on your property. Easy to pop in the occasional broken post down the road in half an hour after work.

3. If you have a one-time fencing job for your property, and even at the $3500 retail, you can easily sell the equipment at the end of the job and take the depreciation hit because of the time saved.

On the shattering, it is interesting that it can be done. However, one of my deceased mechanic friends used to have a saying that he used a lot that is also common in the Southeast that, I think, explains it: "hit it like you mean it." In other words, if you're going to hit something make sure that you hit it. I have others call it "shocking the wood (metal, etc.)"

 

[reasley]

My Worksaver has a bubble level that made it a lot easier to align the driver in both directions at once. Being off 2 degrees, more when it hit a rock, didn't bother me.


I drove 4" x 4" x 8' and the only time this happened was when there was a knot or a weak spot on the post.


Amen! Turns a multi step job using a phd into a 1 step job.


I drove all my posts by myself, so I agree. I loaned my driver to a friend and since he had a helper it didn't take as long.

Again, Mike, thanks so much for your previous post driving posts -- they helped me a lot even before I got this driver.

On the bubble level, mine does not have that feature. However, I have found myself using the Harbor Freight magnetic angle indicators for pretty much anything that I used to use a level for. I don't have the confidence to read a bubble level within two degrees, so the HF tools enable me to do it better than I could do myself.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel certain that I am going to go ahead and build the positioner for my driver that Shaver sells (see attached, but it is incredibly expensive to buy). Doing posts by myself, I think that this attachment will aid considerably in time and accuracy savings. My only concern with it is balance on my JD 4300 compact tractor, but I see two ways to reduce the potential for imbalance (take a look at the top picture and you'll see what I mean). The first way is to beef up the left "foot" with additional weight and the second way is to put a foot of some type there, but make a metal basket to hold the posts. Thoughts/comments welcome . . .

 

[Robert_in_NY]

How much did you pay for your post and how expensive was the shipping? Thanks for the link to the website also.

 

[reasley]

How much did you pay for your post and how expensive was the shipping? Thanks for the link to the website also.

Good evening, Robert --

I think that you are referencing my earlier post, but I'm not sure. Locally, the post prices are as follows for the brand mentioned: 4.5" x 8' are $9 and 6" x 8' are $14. The company mentioned in the previous methods sells in any quantity to anyone, though and they gave me a quote the other day on the 6" x 7'6" and 6" x 8'. They are $9.35 and $9.75 each, respectively and, from Tyler, Texas to me is about 155 miles and their shipping quote was $500 for a full semi truck load. (Note that they come 28 to a bundle and a semi load is 560 posts). Also, note that they produce all over the country -- Ohio, for example, is, I think, their home office. I also got a quote on the 1" x 6" x 16' "corral boards" for the horizontals on the fence and I thought that it was a great price (mixed oak, rough full sawn green) at $6.25. These come from Monroe, LA. and the freight quote was $750, with a full load of 945 pieces.

Back to the posts -- one thing to note: I compared the ones from the company listed in my previous post to the ones at my local TSC and there is no, zero, comparison between the two. The TSC posts are crooked, knotty, and probably 50% the quality at best of the other posts. So much different in fact, that I will probably contact TSC's purchasing guys and recommend that they check these out.

 

[MikePA]

For that price I could see it being worth while, but for the new price, you would need to set a lot of poles to make it worth while. I still can hardly believe that you are able to pound a wooden post into the ground without it shattering.

I agree with what reasley wrote. A driver is not cheap, but I had 227 posts to put in by myself. With the soil we have here, it couldn't have gotten them all in in a summer. So, it was either pay someone to do it or buy a driver. It was cheaper to buy a driver. People are always amazed when I tell them it pounds in 4 x 4 posts. "Don't you have to 'sharpen' them?" is the typical question. Nope. Works like a charm.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Good afternoon, Larry --

I agree on the crowning idea -- that should fix the problem. I just got in after using the driver again and I tried the metal "cap" that I mentioned earlier. It works great at concentrating the force on the top of the post, but the posts are still splintering a bit, even with it in use. So, what I think that I am going to do is a slight modification of your crowning idea. Instead of driving these 8' posts so that the height of the top of the fence post is where it needs to be, I think that I'm going to leave them about 2-6" long (depending on amount of splintering) and, before installing the horizontal boards, run a line and trip the tops.

Typically I find that the slight rounding of the tops [actually bevelling the edges] completely eliminates the splintering by causing the hammer blow to fall well away from the post edge. It is pretty easy to do with a small chainsaw oriented radially and with bar oriented in the direction aimed to cut straight down the post but at a small angle to the plane of the top face of the post. Always have saw oriented so teeth are cutting from the outside edge inward to prevent splintering while cutting. Just run it back and forth over the edges. Neat isnt needed. If you have plenty of post to waste then trimming ends will get around splintering, but I find that cracks will sometimes progress further that you think.
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

People are always amazed when I tell them it pounds in 4 x 4 posts. "Don't you have to 'sharpen' them?" is the typical question. Nope. Works like a charm.

My ground is usually too hard at depth for that. Also they end up tighter with a point. Only problem with points, other than the extra prep, is that symmetry is important - esp for the 1st foot.
larry

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Good evening, Robert --

I think that you are referencing my earlier post, but I'm not sure. Locally, the post prices are as follows for the brand mentioned: 4.5" x 8' are $9 and 6" x 8' are $14. The company mentioned in the previous methods sells in any quantity to anyone, though and they gave me a quote the other day on the 6" x 7'6" and 6" x 8'. They are $9.35 and $9.75 each, respectively and, from Tyler, Texas to me is about 155 miles and their shipping quote was $500 for a full semi truck load. (Note that they come 28 to a bundle and a semi load is 560 posts). Also, note that they produce all over the country -- Ohio, for example, is, I think, their home office. I also got a quote on the 1" x 6" x 16' "corral boards" for the horizontals on the fence and I thought that it was a great price (mixed oak, rough full sawn green) at $6.25. These come from Monroe, LA. and the freight quote was $750, with a full load of 945 pieces.

Back to the posts -- one thing to note: I compared the ones from the company listed in my previous post to the ones at my local TSC and there is no, zero, comparison between the two. The TSC posts are crooked, knotty, and probably 50% the quality at best of the other posts. So much different in fact, that I will probably contact TSC's purchasing guys and recommend that they check these out.

Thanks

 

[MtnViewRanch]

You guys are way out of my price range. Are you guys putting up 3-4 rail fencing or wire, and how far apart are your posts? How many feet of fencing per day, how long do the posts last?
Just wondering

 

[CATMAN]

I believe Shaver mentions that if you are having troubles with the top of the posts moving "away" from the driver during pounding, you are to put a little outward tilt to the top of the driver. Basically, when the head of the pounder comes down, it has a tendency to hold the top of the post "inward" towards the inside channel. My dad always has the top of the pounder tilted towards himself(stands on front of the post). Now, his post driver is over 30 years old and has a lot of "play" in it, too. I have read about this procedure on Shaver literature before. Maybe you already knew this, but you purchased this used, so you might not have received and paperwork with it.

 

[reasley]

You guys are way out of my price range. Are you guys putting up 3-4 rail fencing or wire, and how far apart are your posts? How many feet of fencing per day, how long do the posts last?
Just wondering

Good evening, Brian --

My place is/was a 25 acre horse farm. The original fencing was put in in either in 1973 or shortly thereafter. I have spoken with the son of the original owner and he told me that they started putting them in with an auger but it would not drill in some of the areas, so they ended up bringing in a post pounder to get penetration.

This fence has lasted for around 35 years and some of it is still very good. I am going in and replacing where needed and also putting up some new lines. Some are slightly less than 8' on center and some are slightly less than 12' on center. Some of the fencing is two rail, with a third rail on the top of the posts and attached to the end of the first rail, which it butts against. Some is three rail.

On the number of feet of fencing per day, I am not looking at those kinds of figures. Obviously, the quicker the better, but I didn't consider other fencing options -- I wanted to retain the look of the white rail fencing and I wanted it to be wood for that reason.

If this were a cattle property with miles and miles of fencing, I wouldn't even be considering these large wood posts and rails, but it is what needs to be here, so I am trying to do a high-quality job at a reasonable cost . . .

 

[reasley]

I believe Shaver mentions that if you are having troubles with the top of the posts moving "away" from the driver during pounding, you are to put a little outward tilt to the top of the driver. Basically, when the head of the pounder comes down, it has a tendency to hold the top of the post "inward" towards the inside channel. My dad always has the top of the pounder tilted towards himself(stands on front of the post). Now, his post driver is over 30 years old and has a lot of "play" in it, too. I have read about this procedure on Shaver literature before. Maybe you already knew this, but you purchased this used, so you might not have received and paperwork with it.

Thanks so much for the tip, Catman. I do have the Operator's Manual, but I just checked and it doesn't say anything about angling the driver, but it makes sense. Now that you've mentioned it, I remember that I have been doing that after the start of driving but it is probably too late at that time . . .