Post emissions used tractors.

[N80]

I'm looking for a 70-100 hp JD or Kubota. My search has been limited to pre-emissions machines and it has been frustrating to say the least. I think there is a LOT of good to be said for pre-emissions machines that don't have ECMs/computers but that doesn't seem to be in the cards for me right now.

I realize that my bias for pre-emissions machines is in large part built on here-say and ignorance. I know nothing about emissions stuff. But obviously people are buying new tractors and presumably these machines aren't rolling disasters of unreliability.

So, if I'm going to expand my search to emissions machines I guess I'm going to have to learn something about them.

Is there a summary or a primer on this stuff, the terms, the processes, the additional maintenance and cost, etc? Is there any real data (verses here-say) on reliability? I'd appreciate any input or reference that can help me understand.

For the record my use would be mostly on weekends. It would be highly variable. There would be very little long run times and set rpms.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

Long story short a pre-emissions machine you can idle around all day with no issues, newer tier 4 tractors need to be ran at high rpm's pretty much little or no idling more than a few minutes or it builds up soot that needs to be burned off or re-gen which the tractor is supposed to do automatically, I personally like pre-emission tractors as I don't want to run around nearly wide open full time just my opinion, but not to worry there will be a cow pen full of folks along shortly to tell you all the benefits of tier 4 and DEF fluid and how they love not smelling diesel fuel and that it is saving the world.

 

[npalen]

I post mainly for entertainment but this guy will give you his thoughts.

 

[N80]

So this is one of those hot topis? Not intending to start a war. Just need to know the basics.

The problem is that my intended and typical use involves lot of time idling and doing stuff at low rpms. The same would be true with the new one. That worries me.

 

[jyoutz]

So this is one of those hot topis? Not intending to start a war. Just need to know the basics.

The problem is that my intended and typical use involves lot of time idling and doing stuff at low rpms. The same would be true with the new one. That worries me.

Yes, you do need to run the tier 4 tractors at higher RPMs most of the time to minimize regeneration cycles. But regeneration cycles aren’t an issue, I just raise RPMs and keep working. I prefer tier 4 tractors for a personal reason. I used to get sinus headaches from the diesel exhaust after using my old pre-emissions tractor; now I don’t with my new tractor. I run open station tractors so I guess a pre-emissions cab tractor wouldn’t have those issues.

 

[MinnesotaMorg]

While not the brands you stated, there are a few 70+ hp tractors that don't have DPF or DEF. New holland workmaster/powerstar 75, Massey Ferguson 4707, mahindra 6075. There are probably others, but these are the ones I can think of.

 

[Hay Dude]

I'm looking for a 70-100 hp JD or Kubota. My search has been limited to pre-emissions machines and it has been frustrating to say the least. I think there is a LOT of good to be said for pre-emissions machines that don't have ECMs/computers but that doesn't seem to be in the cards for me right now.

I realize that my bias for pre-emissions machines is in large part built on here-say and ignorance. I know nothing about emissions stuff. But obviously people are buying new tractors and presumably these machines aren't rolling disasters of unreliability.

So, if I'm going to expand my search to emissions machines I guess I'm going to have to learn something about them.

Is there a summary or a primer on this stuff, the terms, the processes, the additional maintenance and cost, etc? Is there any real data (verses here-say) on reliability? I'd appreciate any input or reference that can help me understand.

For the record my use would be mostly on weekends. It would be highly variable. There would be very little long run times and set rpms.

For what you are doing, I think a post emissions used machine would be fine. You arent relying on it to make a living. The emissions machines are just more complex. They have to be. They have an exhaust after treatment system that adds more parts (sensors, wires, valves, soot traps, and the parts for DEF if over 75HP, too). It has to be less reliable. There’s just more parts & functions on board than a pre emissions tractor. It’s not “hearsay” its factual. DPF and DEF systems can fail or wear out.

It’s like a 4WD pickup versus a 2WD pickup. There’s more moving/wear parts on the 4WD so more potential for problems.

I’d doubt there’s any data available. In my case, each time a tech comes out from the dealer to help us repair something, they do comment to me ”you’re smart for buying pre-emissions tractors”. They tell me a lot of stories of farm tractors in perfect running condition out of service because of a bad sensor. However, that’s not your situation, so you would be ok. Not the end of the world if your tractor goes down and you might enjoy the cleaner exhaust.

As far as additional cost, there’s DEF fluid if over max HP for a DPF only and the cost to replace sensors that can go bad. I’d doubt you’ll ever clog the DPF if you operate it properly.

BTW: pre-emissions tractors have ECMs/PCMs, too. Most common rail diesel engines have electronic injection pumps and require a computer to operate.

 

[EddieWalker]

I started my search for a cabbed tractor with the same idea. I wanted something made from 2012 or earlier. I found several nice tractors, but while waiting to look at a few others, the prices started going up. My timing was off, and I wasn't willing to pay $5,000 more for the tractor that I had just looked at the week before. I'm fortunate that I have quite a few used dealers in my area, and Tractorhouse has plenty of listings to consider. The ones I looked at in person where anywhere from excellent condition, to falling apart. Price seemed to be based on brand more then condition or hours. Kubota and Deere where the most expensive, Kioti was probably the best on price that I found. I also probably overthought everything and waited too long on making an offer on some of the better deals that I came across.

I've never had a Tier4 tractor, so I can't comment on any personal experience. I have a few friends that have them and they have complained about finding DEF, and not being happy about dealing with Regen when it happens. One has had his tractor in a few times to deal with warning lights, but it never stopped working so he couldn't use it. I also buy hay from several different people with bigger tractors and all of them hate Tier4. One of them removed all of it from his tractor once the warrantee was over and said it was the best thing he ever did. It's probably just negative thinking on my part, but I'm convinced that if I bought a tractor that required DEF, I would have to deal with it at some point, and I just don't want to add that to the list of other things I'm sure I'll have to deal with.

Since I'm financing this, getting the right loan also became an issue. Some used dealers don't offer financing, and my bank wasn't very interested in being competitive with what some of the other dealers where offering. This also limited my choices, so I kept looking.

Eventually I read about Massey Ferguson on here and looked into buying brand new. I signed the papers back in November for a brand new 4707 cabbed 4x4 tractor for $55,300 with zero percent interest for 84 months and a monthly payment of $659. I'm still waiting on the tractor. Since then, the price has increased, financing and changed, and I'm not aware of anybody that has anything close to this right now.

One of the biggest reasons for going into debt was not buying something that somebody else didn't want. Either it was financial and they took great care of it, or it had issues and they didn't want to deal with it. The 4707 does not use DEF and it does not go through Regen. It's right under the HP rules for this.

 

[ericm979]

If you can work with < 75hp, the emissions limits are easier to meet. DEF is not required. A lot of the problems with trucks are with the DEF system.

 

[deserteagle71]

While not the brands you stated, there are a few 70+ hp tractors that don't have DPF or DEF. New holland workmaster/powerstar 75, Massey Ferguson 4707, mahindra 6075. There are probably others, but these are the ones I can think of.

You are correct. I almost bought a New Holland before finding my Kubota used but almost new.

No, those tractors don't use a DPF or DEF. They have a DOC system - and no different from any other newer TierIV tractor, you still have to avoid running them at idle/low rpms. The catalyst will not work properly if it is not hot.

 

[dodge man]

DPF= diesel particulate filter. Kind of like a catalytic convertor on a car but different. This is the part that needs a regen to get hot to burn it off. It basically catches the soot.

EGR=exhaust gas recirculation. It puto exhaust gases back into the intake which reduces the oxygen and makes it burn cleaner. (makes a lot of sense doesn’t it?). This may or may not require a EGR cooler to cool off the exhaust before it enters the intake.

DEF=diesel exhaust fluid. Usually synthetic urea that’s injected into the exhaust stream to help clean it up.

High pressure common rail= a very high pressure fuel injection system, usually computer controlled. Sometimes there are more than 1 injection events. This helps with emissions but also can make the engine more fuel efficient and give more power.

Depending on the tractor it may have all, some, or none of these systems.

 

[N80]

Thanks @dodge man. That helps a lot.

Did a little research on the Kubota M7060 and found this on another forum:

There is no DEF on a M7060, there is no OBD port to hook a scanner to, and there's no modification to raise the idle with a switch like there is on a OTR truck.

When it calls for a regen, you will have to manually raise your RPM's until the light with the arrow pointing up, goes out. You can continue to use the machine, just keep your RPM's up. After the regen is complete, all the corresponding lights will go out, and it's done. Takes anywhere from 25-40min. On the occasion that it calls for a parked regen, you'll have to put everything in neutral, turn off the PTO, set the parking brake, and keep the throttle down to an idle. Then you will push the regen switch with the "P" next to it, and the computer will take over and allow it to regen. At that time, you can not use the tractor, allow it to do it's regen and go do something else. When it's done, the lights will go out.

So, if this is true then the M7060 does not have DEF. That's good. I'd hate to have to mess with and pay for that stuff. But, if the part about regenerating is true them I'm out. My work/project time is limited to weekends and is of great value to me. I do a lot of low rpm work where running at higher rpms is just not an option (dragging piles of logs over rough and hilly terrain, lifting logs onto sawmill, etc) so doing a 25 minute high rpm regen would essentially bring work to a halt. The post above does not say how long a "parked regen" would take but if it is 25 minutes or more I would lose my mind. There is no way I'm spending big bucks on a machine that essentially has to stop and rest.

But, that brings up a question. Can you do preemptive regens? In other words, if the filter is not full of soot and I'm doing something that does not require the tractor, can I have it do a parked regen and thus avoid having to do it while I'm trying to work?

Finally, can these machines be modified to get rid of this crap? (If that is illegal or this is a taboo topic then no reply is necessary.)

 

[Lineman North Florida]

I'm telling you, you are going to be much more satisfied with a pre-emissions tractor for the work that you have described.

 

[dodge man]

In the diesel pickup truck world deletes used to be widely available. Some companies got huge fines. The stuff really got a lot of traction for tractors.

There are some tractors like already mentioned that don’t have a DPF but they are still meeting emissions other ways.

Some tractors show a percent the DPF is full, some allow a parked regen. The one you mentioned I don’t know. People live with this stuff, it’s not good but it’s probably not as bad as it sounds.

 

[N80]

it’s not good but it’s probably not as bad as it sounds.

Agreed. But any 70+ hp tractor in decent shape is a lot of money these days. I can't see spending that much on a machine that is going to need down time when I need the machine most. It is a bitter pill but I think I'm going to have to spend the crazy money on a decent pre-emission machine or do without.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

All our stuff is from the eighties. The very last thing I ever work on is a tractor. Maintenance, yes. Fix breakage or go outs, no. Ain't nothing went out. Big garden. Thousands round bales. Logging. Dirtwork. Have dump trucks too. Have tree cutters and log loaders. These tractors look good and get used a lot.

 

[deserteagle71]

As an owner of an M7060HDC12 for 4 years, let me give you MY perspective.

I have put ~ 400 hours on the tractor now. (bought it used)

The regen cycle has NEVER been a problem. I'll see the light come on in the dash for a few minutes - then next time I look it is out so the cycle is done. Most times I'm doing something like mowing; with the tractor's EPTO feature the engine turns at ~ 1860 rpm to give me 540 rpm at the PTO shaft so that's where I run the tractor. Almost never do I run the tractor over 2000 rpm.

The above quote you took from someone's forum post is misleading in that my tractor has never "called" for a regeneration; I see the light come on when the cycle starts and that's it. When the process is done the light goes back out. It is an automatic procedure and does not need operator intervention unless the engine is running cold - at too low an rpm. Perhaps the poster runs his engine at idle a lot and then, yes, the warning lights will come on to let you know that the tractor needs to do a regen cycle and you must raise the rpms so the exhaust gets hot enough to complete the cycle. My regen cycles have never taken longer than about 20 minutes - 10-15 minutes is what I would estimate most times for a cycle.

My tractor has NEVER called for a "Parked Regeneration" so I'm not sure what the poster is talking about there. There is such a procedure outlined in the owner's manual but it would be used only in some special situation. I've never had to do one.

Here are screen shots of the relevant portions of my M7060 owner's manual:

I have never had to "Inhibit" regeneration - that's done only if the tractor is in some location where the extra-high exhaust temps would be a problem.

I too was very concerned about the regen process when I bought the Kubota. After having used the tractor for 400+ hours I can say my concerns were without merit. I don't even think about it anymore when I fire up the tractor. As I stated, I see the regen light go on, and then a few minutes later it has gone out and the cycle is complete. Let me emphasize again, the regen cycle IS NOT a problem - else no one would be buying these tractors. If you end up with one of these tractors, just use it normally. Only difference between it and an older model is that the more you run it at idle, the more often it will have to regenerate.

To answer your other questions - no, the tractor does not use DEF. There is no DEF tank to fill. As far as I know, there is no way to have it regenerate early - but why would you? We're not talking about having to race the engine at full throttle - if you are at idle you may have to raise your rpms a few hundred. Also as far as I know there is no kit to get rid of the emissions equipment.

 

[deserteagle71]

I'm telling you, you are going to be much more satisfied with a pre-emissions tractor for the work that you have described.

No doubt we all would. Just try to find one of these that hasn't been beat to death - and even then, the price is exorbitant. I looked for a long time so good luck finding a decent one.

 

[N80]

@deserteagle71, good info. Thanks.

No doubt we all would. Just try to find one of these that hasn't been beat to death - and even then, the price is exorbitant. I looked for a long time so good luck finding a decent one.

Quite right. The best deal I've found so far, and passed on, was a 7040 for $28k. Every single visible thing on it was dented or bent. Having looked it over and driven it, I think it was sound mechanically. But I just could not spend that kind of money on something that I know was abused that badly.

I have seen a few M7040s with low hours. They were a long way from here and sold for around $37k.

I would love to find something in between. So would everyone else.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

There is an auction the second Wednesday of every month in Moultrie Ga called Weeks Farm Auction and the next day which is always the second Thursday of every month called Rebel auction in Hazlehurst Ga and there are usually always some nice pre-emissions tractors at each auction or at least there have been, some good deals can be had if you don't have to have green paint, red and blue tractors can be real reasonable and sometimes orange as well, you can look at every item online starting about a week before and if anything interest you , take a road trip and you can start the equipment operate it etc, then bid on it if it suits you, they (pre-emission ) tractors are still out there.