Power Line to my house was broken

[ultrarunner]

:-(. Hoping for the best but probably at least 36 hours of Brown Out...

I've been working double shifts so late to the party myself.

Long Microwave cook time is something all affected shared and all chalked it up to needing a new microwave.

The furnace, refrigeration and washing machine also issues.

Most neighbors are elderly... one told me she called her son saying the washing machine quit with a full load and filled with water...

My home has a massive line conditioner but I don't know much about it as home built by retired Telecom Engineer... it had indicator light for voltage conditions and is suppose to prevent spikes and condition power... said they used these in telecom centers... it's about the size a very big suitcase but no batteries.

 

[ultrarunner]

Wow, I never seen a shared transformer either. My property has two and this is a "small" place. Both are 25kW. Places are too spread out around here to share a transformer.

Mom is residential subdivision circa 1957 on 5,000 to 12,000 foot lots.

 

[ponytug]

The old transformer could have failed with a drain to ground, lowering the local circuit voltage. Not every failure is a total failure. We went 11 months with a failed neutral ground at the transformer, and yes, I kept thinking that the microwave was dying since it was taking fifty percent longer to hear things.

We have two transformers as well- to generate 3 phase, but both neighbors also have their own transformers, 3-500' away from our transformers.

@ultrarunner that sounds like an old ferroresonant transformer. They absorb line transients, and within limits bring the output to 120V. I used one once to compensate for a local grid that had spikes that were driving our control electronics nuts. It also helped with some 6am switchover that the utility routinely did that caused a one second dropout. Does it hum much?

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

Speaking from personal experience, I can attest that these brown outs / failed neutrals don't jump to top of mind or at least top of me for me.

Just replaced the furnace blower motor; I noticed it was "grunting" longer and longer at each start up, but it took a while to register that something had changed. The HVAC service technician came December 8th, new motor ordered December 9th, second day air. (versus six weeks ground) Trane then proceeded to ship an empty box, a box with random part, a box with a motor with a bent axle, and finally this week the right motor. Only took four weeks for "2nd day air"... When the old motor was pulled, the original motor had 3/8" in/out play in the axle, so the bearings were totally shot. The house now gets warmer faster, which I think is due to better air circulation.

All the best,

Peter

This has been the year for furnace repairs... In the last 6 months at various Oakland locations I have replaced two blower motors, a couple of high efficiency furnace combustion fan motors, one control board and one capacitor all at different locations

The old floor furnaces that operate with a key I am happy to report continue to be trouble free!

 

[ponytug]

Judging by the dust on my motor bearings, mine had been leaking oil for years. I noticed that the power supply on the electrostatic precipitator had died two years ago, but no idea of when it failed, so I figure that the motor seals gave out at least three years ago, perhaps much earlier. The furnace is only 45+ years old. Sheesh! They just don't make motors like they used to.

Given how well the air moves now, it might have been struggling for many years.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

The old transformer could have failed with a drain to ground, lowering the local circuit voltage. Not every failure is a total failure. We went 11 months with a failed neutral ground at the transformer, and yes, I kept thinking that the microwave was dying since it was taking fifty percent longer to hear things.

We have two transformers as well- to generate 3 phase, but both neighbors also have their own transformers, 3-500' away from our transformers.

@ultrarunner that sounds like an old ferroresonant transformer. They absorb line transients, and within limits bring the output to 120V. I used one once to compensate for a local grid that had spikes that were driving our control electronics nuts. It also helped with some 6am switchover that the utility routinely did that caused a one second dropout. Does it hum much?

All the best,

Peter

Every night for years at 11pm UPS would beep at switchover but hasn't for some time.

Didn't notice hum but did not go to transformer that was replaced.

The more I learn the less I really know.

Happy to say Mom's furnace is back to near silent operation and so far appliances working!

 

[ultrarunner]

There have been several stories of transformer replacements tied to grow operations but doubt that was the case here but never know.

 

[PILOON]

I once won a debate with the hydro at a house that I was renovating.
I had a digital meter with me and could prove to them that one side was a mere 90 vs the other was at 120.
They allow +/- 5 vac deviation.
The client home owner made a claim for having been short changed on her invoiced consumption and did win.
Hydro were never able to find the actual cause so they are now on their own transformer.

In my area the usual norm is 5 clients per transformer.

Our downfall however is that the power lines are often in the forest with poor access and they merely trim but a 25 foot path in areas where trees are much taller than the power lines consequently we have frequent 'blips' as branches burn off.*
OK, they use automatic restart breakers but they shut down after 2-3 attempts and we then need to wait 3-4 hours for a crew to come reset. Making things worst is we are in a dead cell phone area so they have to sent 2 crews for 'safety reasons'.

* Now that's scary as our Hydro provider might just decide to adopt the California approach and shut power on very dry summer windy days in order to avoid igniting a forest fire.

One concern I have is the major push towards electric cars.
How will the existing power grids handle that?

 

[ultrarunner]

My old neighborhood built in 1922 is still very much 1922 with ancient utility poles and some single family homes with 30 amp 120 volt service as my home... a single 30 amp Edison Fuse main with one 15 lamp and 20 amp outlet circuits.

Electric Car home charging is providing lots of work for electricians.

We are often well over 30 cents a kW and part is to push solar.

I'm certain utility would have eventually been notified but not sure who would have called with all I spoke with blaming appliances.

 

[grsthegreat]

We run up to 7 residential houses on a single transformer, but it depends on the distance between houses. Most rural houses are spread too far apart to share the transformers.

 

[aczlan]

We are often well over 30 cents a kW and part is to push solar

Ouch, we are $0.05/KW for the power plus delivery fees (about the same amount), so around $0.10/KW total.

Aaron Z

 

[Richard]

Next door to me is a natural gas line with a tap that the gas company is currently working on. They are in the process of running a new gas line down the road and in the evening, they park the excavator inside the fenced area around the tap.

Yesterday I went out front to mow the weeds along the road and at the entrance to my place. While mowing, I noticed a cable hanging on my fence. It was so out of place that I just mowed around it while processing what it was. It took me a good ten seconds to comprehend that it was the bottom power line to my house. It was broke pretty clean, and just guessing, it happened exactly over the gate into the fenced area of the gas line tap.

I called 911 and the fire department was there in ten minutes. The Chief said it was the neutral line and that it wasn't hot. I could keep mowing and the power company would be out later to fix it.

Since I still have power at my house, I guess it's not that big of a deal. But what I don't understand is how do I still have power at my house? Top wire is hot, bottom wire in neutral. But if you don't need the bottom wire, why have it?

1. I know this is an old thread
2. I don't know your answers (nor if they've been answered in the prior pages)

I just thought I'd share a story.

Father in laws house, two houses over from us....on the farm. Had a heating element go out in his water heater. Being the good son in law, I'll replace it. Further, I'm going to use the "gurgle" method. (pulling lower element out and slapping new element in without draining tank and losing a 'gurgle' of water)

Got everything prepared. I might add, this is in a DARK closet inside the house so very difficult to see... so I had a flashlight. Father in law went to breaker box to kill the circuit. I start to take things apart. I get to the point of loosening the existing element to flip them. I yank out the burnt element.....but... I didn't account for it being encrusted with calcium. It would NOT come out.

gurgle
gurgle
gurgle

Uh oh....I don't need 30 gallons of water in my lap....so I give it a good yank and BOOM, out it came! Yay... (gurgle gurgle). I go to get the replacement element.... and some freaking

D.U.F.A.S. (and I'm being VERY polite with that word) happened to NOT take the new element out of its hermatically sealed container designed to NEVER be ripped open for theft purposes.

gurgle gurgle gurgle...

OMg, how did I manage this....now I'm sitting in a puddle of water, have one hand over the hole letting water out while with the other hand, trying to rip the hermatically sealed plastic that's encasing the new element. Then of course, it's a shrink wrapped wrapper so it doesn't just come out, the wrapper entangles inside the curve of the element.

gurgle gurgle gurgle...

I finally get it done, sitting in a puddle.... and start to put things back together.

I get a shock.

WTF???

They double checked, power was off to the heater, I told them to kill the entire house power. This wasn't a painful shock but it was clearly nipping at me and I had no reason why.

They killed the house and I am STILL getting shocked when I touch thest things. Again, recall that I'm sitting in a puddle... so my butt is pretty well grounded, if not my intellect lol.

Grab some dry towels, play keep away from the wires and finally get it all reinstalled and, it worked fine when we turned things on.

Called brother in law who's got an electrician background.... he didn't like how that sounded, he called the local power company. As you say, THAT DAY (the following day) they had a couple trucks out here.

As it turned out, the neutral had snapped on a pole in the woods, away from any road and the neutral was laying on the ground. So I was getting my hiney toasted by the power coming back through me from the ground.

I don't know what, if any, issues that circumstance might have had on our power supply. Nobody ever noticed any power issues.

I don't know if I would have caught this had I not done the glug glug method as I would not have been sitting in a puddle. (shrugs shoulders)

Your comment brought that story back to me. If you read all this without falling asleep, good for you!

 

[coobie]

1. I know this is an old thread
2. I don't know your answers (nor if they've been answered in the prior pages)

I just thought I'd share a story.

Father in laws house, two houses over from us....on the farm. Had a heating element go out in his water heater. Being the good son in law, I'll replace it. Further, I'm going to use the "gurgle" method. (pulling lower element out and slapping new element in without draining tank and losing a 'gurgle' of water)

Got everything prepared. I might add, this is in a DARK closet inside the house so very difficult to see... so I had a flashlight. Father in law went to breaker box to kill the circuit. I start to take things apart. I get to the point of loosening the existing element to flip them. I yank out the burnt element.....but... I didn't account for it being encrusted with calcium. It would NOT come out.

gurgle
gurgle
gurgle

Uh oh....I don't need 30 gallons of water in my lap....so I give it a good yank and BOOM, out it came! Yay... (gurgle gurgle). I go to get the replacement element.... and some freaking

D.U.F.A.S. (and I'm being VERY polite with that word) happened to NOT take the new element out of its hermatically sealed container designed to NEVER be ripped open for theft purposes.

gurgle gurgle gurgle...

OMg, how did I manage this....now I'm sitting in a puddle of water, have one hand over the hole letting water out while with the other hand, trying to rip the hermatically sealed plastic that's encasing the new element. Then of course, it's a shrink wrapped wrapper so it doesn't just come out, the wrapper entangles inside the curve of the element.

gurgle gurgle gurgle...

I finally get it done, sitting in a puddle.... and start to put things back together.

I get a shock.

WTF???

They double checked, power was off to the heater, I told them to kill the entire house power. This wasn't a painful shock but it was clearly nipping at me and I had no reason why.

They killed the house and I am STILL getting shocked when I touch thest things. Again, recall that I'm sitting in a puddle... so my butt is pretty well grounded, if not my intellect lol.

Grab some dry towels, play keep away from the wires and finally get it all reinstalled and, it worked fine when we turned things on.

Called brother in law who's got an electrician background.... he didn't like how that sounded, he called the local power company. As you say, THAT DAY (the following day) they had a couple trucks out here.

As it turned out, the neutral had snapped on a pole in the woods, away from any road and the neutral was laying on the ground. So I was getting my hiney toasted by the power coming back through me from the ground.

I don't know what, if any, issues that circumstance might have had on our power supply. Nobody ever noticed any power issues.

I don't know if I would have caught this had I not done the glug glug method as I would not have been sitting in a puddle. (shrugs shoulders)

Your comment brought that story back to me. If you read all this without falling asleep, good for you!

Its called back feed gald you turned out OK

 

[k0ua]

1. I know this is an old thread
2. I don't know your answers (nor if they've been answered in the prior pages)

I just thought I'd share a story.

Father in laws house, two houses over from us....on the farm. Had a heating element go out in his water heater. Being the good son in law, I'll replace it. Further, I'm going to use the "gurgle" method. (pulling lower element out and slapping new element in without draining tank and losing a 'gurgle' of water)

Got everything prepared. I might add, this is in a DARK closet inside the house so very difficult to see... so I had a flashlight. Father in law went to breaker box to kill the circuit. I start to take things apart. I get to the point of loosening the existing element to flip them. I yank out the burnt element.....but... I didn't account for it being encrusted with calcium. It would NOT come out.

gurgle
gurgle
gurgle

Uh oh....I don't need 30 gallons of water in my lap....so I give it a good yank and BOOM, out it came! Yay... (gurgle gurgle). I go to get the replacement element.... and some freaking

D.U.F.A.S. (and I'm being VERY polite with that word) happened to NOT take the new element out of its hermatically sealed container designed to NEVER be ripped open for theft purposes.

gurgle gurgle gurgle...

OMg, how did I manage this....now I'm sitting in a puddle of water, have one hand over the hole letting water out while with the other hand, trying to rip the hermatically sealed plastic that's encasing the new element. Then of course, it's a shrink wrapped wrapper so it doesn't just come out, the wrapper entangles inside the curve of the element.

gurgle gurgle gurgle...

I finally get it done, sitting in a puddle.... and start to put things back together.

I get a shock.

WTF???

They double checked, power was off to the heater, I told them to kill the entire house power. This wasn't a painful shock but it was clearly nipping at me and I had no reason why.

They killed the house and I am STILL getting shocked when I touch thest things. Again, recall that I'm sitting in a puddle... so my butt is pretty well grounded, if not my intellect lol.

Grab some dry towels, play keep away from the wires and finally get it all reinstalled and, it worked fine when we turned things on.

Called brother in law who's got an electrician background.... he didn't like how that sounded, he called the local power company. As you say, THAT DAY (the following day) they had a couple trucks out here.

As it turned out, the neutral had snapped on a pole in the woods, away from any road and the neutral was laying on the ground. So I was getting my hiney toasted by the power coming back through me from the ground.

I don't know what, if any, issues that circumstance might have had on our power supply. Nobody ever noticed any power issues.

I don't know if I would have caught this had I not done the glug glug method as I would not have been sitting in a puddle. (shrugs shoulders)

Your comment brought that story back to me. If you read all this without falling asleep, good for you!

OMG. Glad you are alive to tell this tale.

 

[PAULWILKIE]

Next door to me is a natural gas line with a tap that the gas company is currently working on. They are in the process of running a new gas line down the road and in the evening, they park the excavator inside the fenced area around the tap.

Yesterday I went out front to mow the weeds along the road and at the entrance to my place. While mowing, I noticed a cable hanging on my fence. It was so out of place that I just mowed around it while processing what it was. It took me a good ten seconds to comprehend that it was the bottom power line to my house. It was broke pretty clean, and just guessing, it happened exactly over the gate into the fenced area of the gas line tap.

I called 911 and the fire department was there in ten minutes. The Chief said it was the neutral line and that it wasn't hot. I could keep mowing and the power company would be out later to fix it.

Since I still have power at my house, I guess it's not that big of a deal. But what I don't understand is how do I still have power at my house? Top wire is hot, bottom wire in neutral. But if you don't need the bottom wire, why have it?

That is a unsafe condition. You need to get that repaired ASAP. Your power is returning on the ground. That makes it lucky for you. If not when the neutral is open your place will be at 240 volts. All your 120 circuits will burn up and catch on fire. The chief should have not told you waht he said as he does not understand electrical

 

[ohiogar]

I had the same thing happen to me once....

About 15 years ago we had a major ice storm here in central ohio Storm of the century 2005 2006 roughly. Power was out for over a week. Brush piled up both sides of every street like after a hurricane in coastal florida. Trusty generator and wood stove and we rode it out!
Finally a bunch of crews showed up in the neighborhood and the lights came back on. sort of. The lights flickered like when a generator stutters and the microwave would not heat. Called the electric company and they argued that the lights
were fixed but they would dispatch another crew.
Well the guy finally came out put a meter on the house and said see you have 120 volts...I argued with him that the house had no power and asked if he could put a load on my house....He laughed and walked off. A week later they finally found the problem.
From the street to the house there were 2 black plastic covered lines twisted around an aluminum stranded cable which coursed through a crotch in a big old cherry tree in our yard. The guy told me that the aluminum was to support the other wires and it did not matter. Well the problem persisted and I came to find that the Aluminum cable was severed right in the crotch of my tree AND that cable was actually the ground for our system..
Good thing you weren't standing in water they joked when they finaly figured it out.
Northern Virginia Electric company to our rescue ...Ha

 

[kenmbz]

I just had to "reset" my washing machine. We had some brown outs a few days back and the washing machine was doing partial cycles, soap gone but clothes dry etc.
This is a front loader, not a real complex one, but does have a control board.
unplugged for 30 seconds (needs to be around 30 seconds or does not reset) and now working fine.

Wife was already shopping for a new washer, luckily they are in short supply!

 

[etpm]

The old transformer could have failed with a drain to ground, lowering the local circuit voltage. Not every failure is a total failure. We went 11 months with a failed neutral ground at the transformer, and yes, I kept thinking that the microwave was dying since it was taking fifty percent longer to hear things.

We have two transformers as well- to generate 3 phase, but both neighbors also have their own transformers, 3-500' away from our transformers.

@ultrarunner that sounds like an old ferroresonant transformer. They absorb line transients, and within limits bring the output to 120V. I used one once to compensate for a local grid that had spikes that were driving our control electronics nuts. It also helped with some 6am switchover that the utility routinely did that caused a one second dropout. Does it hum much?

All the best,

Peter

How are you generating 3 phase power with just transformers? That doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks,
Eric

 

[LouNY]

I would expect that one is a 3 phase transformer for shops or barns and the other going to the house is a single phase.

 

[ponytug]

How are you generating 3 phase power with just transformers? That doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks,
Eric

The overhead 22kV line is 3 phase Delta, so with two transformers you get three phase out, but you only need two transformers. (One between A&B, one between B&C, which get you the three 240V Delta phases, two of which, A&B, are 120V to ground) It is called an open delta-open delta configuration. More here on slide #10.

I would expect that one is a 3 phase transformer for shops or barns and the other going to the house is a single phase.

You got it! The house has the two phases that are 240 to each other and 120 to ground. The three phase 240V runs the well to minimize power losses in getting the power to the submersed pump motor which is 600'+ from the pole.

All the best,

Peter