Power Steering Problem Not Solved

[Alan L.]

As instructed by Kubota I took my 2710 to the dealer on Tuesday morning. A Kubota technician was there to "(a)make the tractor fail and (b) fix it". Unfortunately he didn't stay long enough to do (a) so he never got to (b). I had stressed to the Kubota service manager for the central region that it takes a long time for the problem to come up - usually a couple of hours at least. The guy mowed 2 hours and quit without experiencing the problem. They also put some kind of device on the hydraulic system that makes it simulate various conditions and it didn't fail there either.

The final word was that "As far as Kubota is concerned we and the dealer have made a reasonable effort and shown that the tractor is operating as it should". I was told that in order for them to consider anything I would have to make it fail.

Guys I'm pissed. You go to the trouble of getting an actual human from Kubota to talk to you and another one to actually look at the tractor and you trailer the thing and take it 30 miles to the dealer you would think they would test the thing until it fails. Why would I go to all that trouble if there isn't a problem? Kubota was interested in making an appearance of being willing to address the problem, but they aren't willing to take the time that it takes to duplicate the problem.

He also said that in all the time I have owned the tractor the dealer was never able to duplicate the problem. Somebody lied, because my dealer did duplicate the problem back in '99 (or at least told me they did), changed the fluids at 58 hours that I had just got through changing at 50 hours, and then continued to experience the problem. I needed the tractor back for the weekend and they promised to come pick it up the following Monday which they never did. In the meantime it never was that hot again that summer and I didn't have the serious problems I had before.

I called the owner of the dealership and he understood my pain, but there's not a lot they can do without Kubota's help. The dealer does not have much control over design flaws that they can't fix. He says he will come to my place personally if I am experiencing the problem, as long as its during business hours /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif.

Of all the 2710 and 2910 owners on this board that have had the problem I don't recall a single one getting the problem fixed. One of you got some kind of retrofit of an additional flluid line and filter like the 2910, but if understand it correctly, that didn't fix the problem, and the 2910s have the same problem also.

It appears that the problem is rare, but to those of us who have the problem and can't get it fixed it is very disappointing and frustrating.

It is a wonderful tractor otherwise, but I'm now have a really bad taste in my mouth about Kubota's handling of the problem. Because they weren't willing to expend the time needed to duplicate the problem I have continue on my own, with binding steering at 4:00 on Sunday afternoon when there is nobody to call.

Those of you with Kubota tractors that are having this problem would you please email me at gtalumnus@earthlink.net. I am thinking seriously about a class action lawsuit. I think everyone with a 2710 should be given a new M9000 and 200 shares of Kubota stock.

I am seriously fond of this tractor but I'm gonna give it this summer when its real hot. If I can't get anyone down to my place to witness the problem, or they won't otherwise fix it, I will be trading for a John Deere 4200.

Alan L., TX

 

[Von]

Alan,
I thought of your problem yesterday when I was cutting the grass and the temp. was near 90. I cut the grass for 3 hrs. with no problems, and then drove the tractor in high to see if my B2710 would have the same problems. I'm glad to say that the steering worked flawless with no hint of any trouble. I guess it must be only a few that are effected by this, so I would think it is not a design flaw but a quality control issue. Good luck in getting this fixed.

 

[Alan L.]

Von: wonna trade?

Alan L., TX

 

[Von]

Alan,
Thanks for the offer, but you have too many hours on yours! LOL... I hope that you get yours working the way mine does.

 

[Bird]

Alan, I can certainly understand your wanting to get it right. That would, indeed, be frustrating, but intermittent problems usually do drive both the owner and service personnel nuts. Mine did it twice, and then never again. Naturally, I'm still always kinda wondering whether it'll do it again or not, but I can't complain about Kubota since I can't even make it do it again myself. I've thought about trying mowing in high range and see if that would make it act up, but I usually mow in mid-range and recently ran it 11.1 hours one day and 9.1 hours the next day doing some heavy grass and weed pasture mowing and it never stuttered once. The only solution the two dealers I've talked to could think of was to change the hydraulic oil filter (they didn't even think it would be necessary to change the fluid). And of course, the last time I changed it, I changed both fluid and filter and went to Amsoil, so I don't know whether the synthetic makes any difference or not.

Bird

 

[bsauter]

Hi Alan, I am really sorry to see you are still having problems. If you recall I bought a 2910 last August and it was doing the same thing except I didn't have to run it very long before it acted up. Maybe a half hour and in middle range. My dealer could not duplicate it because they didn't have the manpower to spend driving the tractor for a while to make it act up. I did not want to mess with it since I had a similar problem on my old B2150 after 700 hours. But that was just old age and lots of hard use.

After putting 25 hours on the 2910 I went to the dealer one day and complained (nicely) that I was unhappy about (A) the steering, Kubotas problem. and (B) I just wasn't comfortable driving it after awhile, my problem.

My dealer called the VP for North America and that guy said to make me happy. They took back the 2910 (!!) and I got a L3010HST instead and have been very, very happy ever since. I thought I was going to get the shaft but Kubota was very responsive!! I was seriously thinking of trading for a NH or Deere but really liked the L series and glad I did what I did. A very good friend of mine has a Deere 4300 and has many problems and that scared me too. There are many satisfied and complaint free owners of 29 and 2710's here so you and I and a couple others must have been the exception.

I would say to push Kubota corporate and your dealer harder. I don't know, maybe my dealer has a great relationship with the VP or called in a favor to get the service I did.

I certainly wouldn't blame you for jumping ship though, my heart starting pounding when I read your post and thought about the frustration you must have right now. I would be totally PO'ed too!! Even if they didn't take my 2910 back I would have traded mine for green or blue and taken the big hit on a 25 hour old tractor which was about $2500 but it would have been worth it to not have the frustration.

Good luck and keep us posted.



Brad, Kubota L3010HST, loader, R4 tires
Pictures at http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=179207&a=9183978

 

[M. Sullivan]

Disappointed to hear how you were treated.....we are all 1 failure mode away from such experiences ourselves. Clearly there is an issue with these...thought I noticed a binding on my 2000 2710 the other day myself. Will keep an eye on it. Hopefully someone higher up the foodchain will read your post and take another shot at it. From what I've read, I'd guess there is definately a problem, likely design (or they would have a fix if it were process). Also guessing they know what it is and are hoping it only occurs on a rare stack-up of events, or resolves itself with age. Either way, they need to protect the customer! Just look at the Ford tire recall...painful, costly, but I'll bet there's not one affected customer who would bad mouth what the co. did for them. Note: Not implying the K issue is a safety issue...

 

[Alan L.]

Unfortunately my tractor didn't start acting up until it had 50 hours on it. By then I doubt they would change tractors with me. Besides, I was happy with the tractor otherwise and could not imagine they would not fix it.

I am absolutely convinced there is a file on this at Kubota. Some of our Kubota techs on this board have seen the problem, but I would imagine they fear retaliation from Kubota via their employer to say much about it.

I don't want a JD tractor for my purposes, but everything I have heard says they admit to their problems and get them fixed instead of solving the problem by declaring that it does not exist.

Alan L., TX

 

[b8200hst4wd]

Just Mow till he gets there !

Alex (B8200/HST/4WD/FEL/MidM/Tiller

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Why don't we all go back to basics and look at all the variables since the people in Atlanta can't get it right.
This is not quite rocket science - It is a tractor .
We are ok when cold but plays up when hot.

If oil viscosity is a problem then those in warmer climates should be experiencing more of a problem - assuming they use the same oil.

If a valve is sticking or not set correctly then the problem will have a wider distribution possibly affecting some models more than others Japan vs USA manufacture.

Accumulate the data, Analyse the problem, formulate a solution. - infortunately those in Kubota Atalanta are unable to do this. (Same method should be used in solving similar tractor problems)

 

[Alan L.]

Well, 7:00 in the evening, 90 degrees or less, my power steering acts up after 1.5 hours. Gonna do some more brush hogging tomorrow but the dealer won't be open, thus I can't get a witness.

I'm convinced the Kubota rep who supposedly checked out my tractor is a liar. The problem is entirely too easy to duplicate at this point.

Alan L., TX

 

[ronjhall]

Alan
I was going to ask you if your power steering is still giving you problems. I guess this message answers that question.
My tractor is still having the same problem./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif It has gotten so bad that when tractor is idling, steering is hard and very noisy. Next week dealer and a <font color=orange> Kubota </font color=orange> Field Representative are coming to my place and cut the back pasture until steering starts to act up. I don't think they will be able not to find problem./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Temperature today was less than 80 degrees and problem showed up after only 45 minutes.
One very interesting item I got from the dealer is that no district has reported any steering problems. Including your area. I guess visits to dealer by a Field Representative to investigate problems do not require him to report it to California if he says there is nothing wrong./w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

 

[kubmech]

Kubota steering problem is all in your head (your eyes are getting heavy) Kubota steering is perfect (you are feeling sleepy) kubota tractors are perfect and have no problems (you are in a deep relaxing sleep) Kubota factory reps are gods and can't be wrong (when you leave this post you will be completely alert and feel relaxed and rested)

 

[woodstock]

If the oil is overheatiing this could cause a problem. Oil cooler would help (I think some old Fords use to have this on their power steering return line) but this would be just a patch not the fix.

Why am I getting sleepy? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Winnipeg, Manitoba

2001 BX2200 All Kubota FEL, Tiller, box blade, blower w/elec shute, 60 mid mt deck, Ag tires.
Grey market B7000 w/Tiller (120 hrs)
1984 JD 316 after 687 hrs.

 

[Alan L.]

I mowed about 5 hours on the 4th and wrestled with the power steering the last 3. There was nobody to call about it. It has been worse before, it started after about 2 hours but was intermittent. Sometimes it got better for a while.

When it really gets bad I have no power steering at all unless I let the tractor cool down at idle. This usually happens when the temp gets close to 100.

What really pisses me off is that I'll be cruising along in medium range right toward a cedar tree that we decided to keep when I whip the steering wheel to the left, barely miss the tree and then whip back and bring the brush hog right in past the tree. Except when I apply the expected amount of pressure required to "whip" I have zero power steering for a second and the FEL goes right through the cedar tree. For this reason I have to be more careful as I have lost the manueverability that I have when the steering is working properly.

I try to detect any funny noises but don't hear anything unusual. About the only consistency is that the temp guage gets up close to half way when the problem occurs.

We're fixing to have some 100 degree days early next week so I might take off work and mow something.

I actually had a dream of finally getting someone to witness the problem while it acts up. I'm struggling with no power steering. I stop and the Kubota rep gets on, makes a couple rounds and says "What?" /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Alan L., TX

 

[kerr]

Now yer talking,J.D.rules.I have a 4200.get the 4300 x-ter ponies.

 

[art]

Allen try and make it on demand. You stated the engine temp gauge was at 1/2 way, if you were to put a piece of card board in front of the radiator you might be able to get a faster warm up of the oil and tractor to make it easier for it to happen. I believe you have a faulty relief valve or control valve,those are the most common thing's to give interrmittent service. Everything else you have in the system normally works or it doesn't. It is far easier to fix when the problem can be found. It sounds like if they did find it it would still take some time to see if it was fixed.

 

[kubmech]

Just a few thoughts for trying to narrow down the possibilities:

Those who are or have had the steering problem,
FEL installed, try mowing with FEL removed, see if there's a difference.

What tires are you running.

When the steering acts up (when loader installed) lift the front end off the ground and see if steering changes.

When acting up, slowly turn steering wheel one way, then the other. Any difference? any noise or buzzing?

If possible, check ps pump temp, and trans fluid temp.

Pull the trans dipstick note if there's any oil foaming.

Is your 3PH in the fully raised position?

Has anyone had the problem while not mowing and/or with mower removed. Belly or rear mount.

In 4x4 or 2x4? any difference.

Just trying to narrow down why some have the problem and some do'nt, hoping for a common denominator other than heat. Alan seems to be able to produce the problem at will (except for when the right people are there to see it)

 

[Steve_Carver]

Good Morning Alan,
We had 2 similar situations as you describe during the past three years.
Same customer ... same tractor.
I was never able to experience the systems when operating the tractor and had to rely 100% on the owners viewpoint.

And do not pretend to know ,for sure,the actual cause of the "sticking, erratic and sometimes binding" symptoms the owner described but I'll be happy to tell you what we did. Things are all OK now with the owner.

It may also help other owners as well.

1. FIRST TIME, we replaced the entire orbital steering control unit... , bleed the system several times to remove all the air pockets.
We were careful to check the new control assy. to insure it was well lubricated INSIDE before installation. We did not want it to DRY at first few seconds of use-- the first time the wheel was turned which could mess up the seals and O-rings .. before the oil was pumped into it.

The original orbital worked just fine at our store, as did the first replacement part..... however ..ater a week... the customer said he could feel an unusual jerky sensation in the steering when mowing with a rotary cutter.

He then report that the only time he had ever felt the symtoms was when he was using that particular implement.

So ... we replaced the orbital again.....
This time, I went to his home and watched him operate the tractor with his rotary cutter... (48" Woods Brand rotary cutter).

He was operating the rotary cutter in 2 positions...
A. .... On uneven or bumpy ground, he would raise the cutter up so that the tail wheel did not roll on the terrain surface.
Therefore the tractor hydraulic system was carrying the payload (cutter) .
It was staving the steering system and with the front of the tractor NOT being as heavy as if the cutter had been rolling instead of being raised.

In this position the tractor was disadvantaged two ways...
Hydraulics were working to raise and carry the full weight of the cutter ... all for many hours and
# 2 .. the front steering and 4wd were disadvantaged because they would light and bouncing a lot due to the counterbalance effect of the raised cutter.

B.
On level ground and driveway right of way cutting...
He would lower the cutter down to so as to allow the tail wheel to just barely skim the surface but, still, not carry any weight. This caused the tail wheel to spin-wiggle-sway-and be in constant motion and quivering all the time. These energies were being transmitted all over the tractor and ... yes all the way to the front end and front tires... Indeed the front tires and axle appeared to have an erratic steering symptom.

This practice/type of operating the rotary cutter had caused severe and premature wear to the bearing and axle of the tail wheels . The extra wear amplified the erratic motions.

The customer was really unaware of the transmissions of these energies throughout his tractor.

Remedy:
1. Never Leave the three point hitch hydraulic control lever in the JAM UP position.
Always push it back towards lower approx. 1/4 inch. This will eliminate the possibility of a mis -adjustment of the lever causing the hydraulic valve/relief valve and pump to work overtime, starve oil from the steering. and overheat relief valves and oils.

2. When using a rotary cutter (or any other similar implements) allow the tail wheel to carry weight.
This will cause it to become a gauging device for cutting height of rear end of cutter ... as well as keep it from doing all the wiggling and gyrating.

3. Use the TOP LINK adjustment on the three point hitch and tail wheel adjustments to level the cutter and to place payload weight on to the tail wheel.

Doing this will also allow the tractor's front end weight and 4wd to assist the steering system and take out the vibrations being transmitted forward by the implement.


These tips caused all the symptoms to disapeared. They have not reoccuured for over a year now.

You should inspect the tractor for any hydraulic lines andtubing that may be bent, crimpled or twisted in such a manner as to restrict oil flow.


None of these issues may solve the symtoms you are experiencing ... but maybe it will help you explore the situation that you have for operating techniques and terrain for help get the FIX.

Good luck,
Steve