Power steering problems

/ Power steering problems #1  

Orangegroveguy

New member
Joined
Jul 24, 2017
Messages
15
Location
Spring Hill Florida
Tractor
Deutz 6806
Recently, I purchased a very used Deutz 6806 tractor. When I first looked at it, the motor ran great, but the power steering was stiff. After a few minutes run time, the power steering loosened up and I decided to drive it home as it was only a few miles from my house. On the way home, the steering became looser and looser until finally, I had no steering at all. The steering wheel turns freely, but the front wheels do nothing. I called a tow truck and had it towed the rest of the way home. Once at home, I checked the fluid in the transmission and discovered it was low, (the power steering pump runs off fluid from the transmission). I filled it to the proper level, started the tractor, but still, no response from the steering. There is a bleeder valve at the end of the hydraulic cylinder which controls the front wheels. I did open the bleeder valve and oil mixed with air bubbles came out, but still the wheels do nothing. What am I doing wrong? What is the proper way of bleeding this system? Any and all help you can give me will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance - Glenn.
 
/ Power steering problems #2  
Recently, I purchased a very used Deutz 6806 tractor. When I first looked at it, the motor ran great, but the power steering was stiff. After a few minutes run time, the power steering loosened up and I decided to drive it home as it was only a few miles from my house. On the way home, the steering became looser and looser until finally, I had no steering at all. The steering wheel turns freely, but the front wheels do nothing. I called a tow truck and had it towed the rest of the way home. Once at home, I checked the fluid in the transmission and discovered it was low, (the power steering pump runs off fluid from the transmission). I filled it to the proper level, started the tractor, but still, no response from the steering. There is a bleeder valve at the end of the hydraulic cylinder which controls the front wheels. I did open the bleeder valve and oil mixed with air bubbles came out, but still the wheels do nothing. What am I doing wrong? What is the proper way of bleeding this system? Any and all help you can give me will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance - Glenn.

Glenn,
What do you mean by the steering was stiff? Wheel was hard to turn & or slow to respond?

When the steering stopped working was there any resistance when turning the steering wheel?

Can you see where the power steering control unit is? Are you sure the steering wheel is connected to the steering unit? Some of these have a coupler or universal joint system that could possibly come undone or wear out.
 
/ Power steering problems
  • Thread Starter
#3  
When I first started the tractor and turned the steering wheel, the steering wheel was hard to turn, but within about a minute, it started turning easier and easier until finally it felt "normal." The front wheels responded and that's when I decided to drive it home. I was about 500 feet from the road and the steering worked normally. Once on the road however, the steering was less and less responsive, like it was running out of fluid. It got to the point that I had little steering at all, I could turn the steering wheel round and round, but the front wheels would barely respond. Suddenly, I had no steering at all. I could turn the wheel in circles with absolutely no response from the front wheels. We were in a bad spot, a thunder storm was brewing, so we called a tow truck which towed us home. Once at home, I checked the transmission level which was low. I added fluid, but still no response. The power steering unit on this tractor draws fluid from the transmission. Beneath the steering wheel, under the dash is a "box" (the best I can describe it) with hydraulic lines running to it. These lines connect to the power steering pump which is located at the front of the motor. Lines also run from the pump to a hydraulic cylinder that runs parallel with the front axle and there are return lines from this cylinder back to the transmission. There is a bleeder screw/bolt on the end of this cylinder. I have tried to bleed the system via this bolt/screw but without success. I worked on it four hours yesterday and managed to get a slight amount of pressure/resistance at the steering wheel and the front wheels moved maybe an inch, and then the steering wheel spun freely again. This is the first tractor I have ever owned that has power steering and I am at a total loss on how to get this thing going again. After doing a lot of reading, I think one of my issues might be air-entrainment. the front cylinder, (the one that runs parallel to the front axle) does leak at the seal, (fluid drips out when the steering wheel is turned to the right) and I think air is pulled in when turned to the left. Another question I have is what kind of fluid should I be running. The man I bought it from said he's owned the tractor for about five years and has put 80W90 gear oil in the transmission, but I'm wondering now if perhaps that is the wrong fluid and I should use Hy-trans fluid. Do you think this could be part of my issue as the gear oil might not contain anti-foaming agents or not enough anti-foaming agents to counteract the small leak in the hydraulic cylinder. Any thoughts or ideas - thanks for the reply and thanks in advance for any and all help you can give - Glenn.
 
/ Power steering problems #4  
Not familiar with Deutz but would be very surprised if they run 80W90 for the hydraulics and power steering. I suspect hy-trans would be a better choice but again not 100% sure of this. If the pump is starving for oil & If their is enough air in the steering system then yes the steering wheel would spin freely. The stiff slow sluggish turning was from low oil volume being supplied.

I would strongly recommend you stop running this tractor or you may ruin the pump from lack of oil.

If you do change to hy-trans you will have to drain as much of the 80W90 out as possible. You may also have to change or clean the suction screens or filters if this model has them.
 
/ Power steering problems #5  
+1 with 'oldnslo'.

Tractors are like humans - They aren't meant to 'leak' fluids. :eek:

Drain the 80W90 out. It is incorrect.

Locate and remove the Suction Filter screen and clean it thoroughly.

Replace the Hydraulic Filter can.

Remove the Steering Ram and have the leaking seals repaired.

Reassemble and tighten hose connections.

Fill transmission with the Hy-Trans mentioned or something similar from your local tractor dealership. Not 80W90.

Start engine and cycle the steering wheel a few times and check for correct operation.

The "box with pipes under the dash" is the Steering Orbital" valve. It is somewhat complex. Ask PO if it is possible he carried out any work here involving removal/refitting of hoses whereby he may have fitted a couple in incorrect locations? It is not uncommon. Usually causes stiff steering or Steering Wheel becoming self-moving. :confused2:

:wrench:
 
/ Power steering problems
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Thank you, thank you and thank you for the guidance. Like I said earlier, I have never owned a tractor with a power steering unit or even hydraulics for that matter. I have always used an old Case model "D" to do my work, but it's getting rather long in the tooth, so when I saw this tractor and heard it run, I jumped on it thinking to give my old "D" a rest. I talked with the original owner who told me he has never messed around with the steering unit or any of the hydraulic lines. What he did when he got it about five years ago was to change the fluid because he felt it was time for a change, believing the fluid was probably the original factory fill. Not knowing what to put in it, he assumed since it was going in the transmission, it needed to be gear oil - thus gear oil was used. In the five years he owned it, it saw light duty work. He owned five acres and would use this tractor to pull a small disc to keep the weeds down. He did this every two or three months, so the tractor saw a lot of "sitting under an oak tree" time. Hopefully, because of that, no major damage was done by using the wrong fluid. I won't be able to work on it till Monday, but I'll keep you guys posted on progress. Thanks again. Hopefully I can get this ole gal running right - she's got a strong motor and I think will serve me well. Glenn
 
/ Power steering problems #7  
When I first started the tractor and turned the steering wheel, the steering wheel was hard to turn, but within about a minute, it started turning easier and easier until finally it felt "normal." The front wheels responded and that's when I decided to drive it home. I was about 500 feet from the road and the steering worked normally. Once on the road however, the steering was less and less responsive, like it was running out of fluid. It got to the point that I had little steering at all, I could turn the steering wheel round and round, but the front wheels would barely respond. Suddenly, I had no steering at all. I could turn the wheel in circles with absolutely no response from the front wheels. We were in a bad spot, a thunder storm was brewing, so we called a tow truck which towed us home. Once at home, I checked the transmission level which was low. I added fluid, but still no response. The power steering unit on this tractor draws fluid from the transmission. Beneath the steering wheel, under the dash is a "box" (the best I can describe it) with hydraulic lines running to it. These lines connect to the power steering pump which is located at the front of the motor. Lines also run from the pump to a hydraulic cylinder that runs parallel with the front axle and there are return lines from this cylinder back to the transmission. There is a bleeder screw/bolt on the end of this cylinder. I have tried to bleed the system via this bolt/screw but without success. I worked on it four hours yesterday and managed to get a slight amount of pressure/resistance at the steering wheel and the front wheels moved maybe an inch, and then the steering wheel spun freely again. This is the first tractor I have ever owned that has power steering and I am at a total loss on how to get this thing going again. After doing a lot of reading, I think one of my issues might be air-entrainment. the front cylinder, (the one that runs parallel to the front axle) does leak at the seal, (fluid drips out when the steering wheel is turned to the right) and I think air is pulled in when turned to the left. Another question I have is what kind of fluid should I be running. The man I bought it from said he's owned the tractor for about five years and has put 80W90 gear oil in the transmission, but I'm wondering now if perhaps that is the wrong fluid and I should use Hy-trans fluid. Do you think this could be part of my issue as the gear oil might not contain anti-foaming agents or not enough anti-foaming agents to counteract the small leak in the hydraulic cylinder. Any thoughts or ideas - thanks for the reply and thanks in advance for any and all help you can give - Glenn.

TractorData.com Deutz D 686 tractor information
I would be tempted to go back to the previous owner and give him a scathing blast of wrath.
Assuming that Deutz has wet clutches or wet brakes , they maybe damaged with the 80/90 gear oil .
 
/ Power steering problems #8  
One would presume the steering worked while he was discing so hopefully no major damage. My Uncle had a couple air cooled Deutz and they were tough tractors.

Best wishes in getting this operating.
 
/ Power steering problems
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Update on Deutz 6806: Forgive me for taking so long to get back with everyone, I've been trying to work on this tractor between rain storms and other jobs. A week ago yesterday, I drained all the transmission fluid from the Deutz. The tractor has three drain plugs, one of which is directly under the drawbar. I removed two plugs - one at the front of the transmission, one at the back. Out came 10 gallons of the 80W90 gear oil installed by previous owner. It was VERY watery - almost like the color of milk. I replaced that with 10 gallons of Cam2 303 hydraulic fluid. I then ran the tractor and tried to "prime" the system with no success. I opened the bleeder screw on the end of the hydraulic cylinder. Bubbles came out, then "spurts" of fluid followed by squirts of fluid - then it started to rain. I tightened the screw and quit for the day, (it rained the rest of the day). Yesterday, I drained the 303 fluid, (all ten gallons). As before, I pulled the front and rear plug on the transmission and when the fluid came out, it had a little bit of water mixed with the oil, but not nearly as bad as the week before. After I drained all the fluid from these two drain holes, I decided to remove the drawbar and pull the third plug, (this plug is between the two I had previously pulled). A big dollop of mixed water and oil came out - about two quarts. Additionally, this third plug has a magnet attached. The magnet had a large amount of gunk mixed with metal "dust" on top. I assume this is normal wear from 40 years of use and I seriously doubt this plug has ever been pulled. I left all three plugs removed with drain pans beneath each plug and pumped five gallons of 303 oil through the fill hole, using a small hand pump. I was able to move the hose from the hand pump around inside the transmission. I did this until no more water-oil mixed fluid flowed from the drain holes. I then re-installed all three drain plugs and the transmission with 10 gallons of new 303 oil. I cranked the tractor and ran it about ten minutes, shut it down and checked the fluid level which was right on the fill mark. I cranked the tractor again and opened the bleeder screw. As before, bubbles and then squirts of fluid. The steering wheel had a "bump" feeling as I turned it and a tiny bit of response at the wheels. Then it started to lightly rain. I put all my tools away, threw a cover over the tractor just in time for it to start pouring rain - it rained the rest of the day. As a side note, with all this draining, cleaning and adding of new fluid, my hands were soaked with 303 oil. Even after washing my hands several times, today, I have the softest, smoothest hands I've ever had in my life.
 
/ Power steering problems #10  
Update on Deutz 6806: Forgive me for taking so long to get back with everyone, I've been trying to work on this tractor between rain storms and other jobs. A week ago yesterday, I drained all the transmission fluid from the Deutz. The tractor has three drain plugs, one of which is directly under the drawbar. I removed two plugs - one at the front of the transmission, one at the back. Out came 10 gallons of the 80W90 gear oil installed by previous owner. It was VERY watery - almost like the color of milk. I replaced that with 10 gallons of Cam2 303 hydraulic fluid. I then ran the tractor and tried to "prime" the system with no success. I opened the bleeder screw on the end of the hydraulic cylinder. Bubbles came out, then "spurts" of fluid followed by squirts of fluid - then it started to rain. I tightened the screw and quit for the day, (it rained the rest of the day). Yesterday, I drained the 303 fluid, (all ten gallons). As before, I pulled the front and rear plug on the transmission and when the fluid came out, it had a little bit of water mixed with the oil, but not nearly as bad as the week before. After I drained all the fluid from these two drain holes, I decided to remove the drawbar and pull the third plug, (this plug is between the two I had previously pulled). A big dollop of mixed water and oil came out - about two quarts. Additionally, this third plug has a magnet attached. The magnet had a large amount of gunk mixed with metal "dust" on top. I assume this is normal wear from 40 years of use and I seriously doubt this plug has ever been pulled. I left all three plugs removed with drain pans beneath each plug and pumped five gallons of 303 oil through the fill hole, using a small hand pump. I was able to move the hose from the hand pump around inside the transmission. I did this until no more water-oil mixed fluid flowed from the drain holes. I then re-installed all three drain plugs and the transmission with 10 gallons of new 303 oil. I cranked the tractor and ran it about ten minutes, shut it down and checked the fluid level which was right on the fill mark. I cranked the tractor again and opened the bleeder screw. As before, bubbles and then squirts of fluid. The steering wheel had a "bump" feeling as I turned it and a tiny bit of response at the wheels. Then it started to lightly rain. I put all my tools away, threw a cover over the tractor just in time for it to start pouring rain - it rained the rest of the day. As a side note, with all this draining, cleaning and adding of new fluid, my hands were soaked with 303 oil. Even after washing my hands several times, today, I have the softest, smoothest hands I've ever had in my life.
Man, that was like watching an exciting TV show that ends abruptly with "To be continued ..." Hopefully this is fixed (of course, any hydraulic cylinders will need to be cycled (FEL, BH, 3-point) to make sure that any trapped water is removed from them. Hopefully your pump isn't trashed.
 
/ Power steering problems #11  
Update on Deutz 6806: ...

...As a side note, with all this draining, cleaning and adding of new fluid, my hands were soaked with 303 oil. Even after washing my hands several times, today, I have the softest, smoothest hands I've ever had in my life.

Your wife's going to love you!! :laughing:

Thanks for update. Good work with getting the third drain plug out. Leave the towbar off as I feel you have another 2 or even 3 full flushes to go, to get all the water out. Water is bad.

As was mentioned by CincyFlyer, you need to purge all the lines and rams.

Looking forward to more news. :drink:
 
/ Power steering problems #12  
Where is the power steering pump located if reference to sump or reservoir. I am concerned that the pump does not appear to be priming. Do you have shop vac exhaust or leaf blower that you could rig up to fill port on your reservoir to apply a slight pressure to the reservoir. Nothing more than 1 or 2 psi. If two people even having one person blowing in fill tube might be enough.

Continued running of the pump without fluid is not good
 
/ Power steering problems
  • Thread Starter
#13  
oldnslo, that is my concern as well. I did try air pressure last week when I drained and filled the first time. I rigged up a little plug that would fit into the transmission filler hole and connected that with my little air compressor. I pumped the system up to maybe ten pounds, (I'm guessing at this, but I was surprised when I pulled the plug, it felt like about ten pounds air pressure rushed out). Unfortunately, this did nothing to prime the pump. I didn't do it for long as I was by myself and was trying to do several things at once, (turn the steering wheel, balance over the seat and steering wheel while holding the air hose in the filler hole which is on the floorboard - in short, it was a very "un-natural" position and I'm not as flexible as I used to be). If I can get a few more "hands on the job," would you suggest I do this again? If so, how long? Should the tractor be running when I do this or can I do it without the tractor running?
 
/ Power steering problems
  • Thread Starter
#14  
The pump is located at the front of the motor, about five feet away from the transmission. A long pipe runs from the top of the transmission, (right under the seat), down at a 45 degree angle, then level along the bottom of the motor, then up at a 45 degree angle coming to the top of the pump. the pipe turns level for a few inches and makes a 90 degree angle into the top of the pump. The pipe looks to be about a 1 inch pipe.
 
/ Power steering problems #15  
Orangegroveguy,

What does the other line on the pump attach to?

Without knowing the type of fittings used on tractor I want to throw out a couple of suggestions that might help prime your pump.

1) depending on the fitting style can you disconnect the pump inlet line at the pump or at least loosen it enough to allow oil to flow freely and remove a possible air lock. If yes I would try disconnecting this line and then use a little air pressure to see if you can get oil out of this line next to the pump. Naturally do this with the tractor not running. Don't try this If this line cannot removed easily without potential for damage or creating air leaks.

2) Can you crack a fitting on the output side of the pump? Again you want a way for any trapped air to escape easily. Crank the engine over and see if any oil or air comes out of this fitting. If possible apply the slight air pressure to assist if forcing oil to the pump. Do not worry about turning the steering wheel at this time.

Be cautious on applying pressure 1 - 2 PSI should do the job.
 
/ Power steering problems
  • Thread Starter
#16  
Greetings and good day all you lovers of tractors and tractor things. As of yesterday, the Deutz 6806, (hence forth called "Big Green Ugly"), lives again! Here's what I did. I took the cap off a "Gatorade" bottle, drilled a small hole through the middle and inserted my air blower fitting from my little air compressor fitting through the hole. Next, I cracked open the lines to the power steering pump. Removing the transmission filler plug, I placed the "Gatorade" cap/air compressor blower fitting over the hole and applied slight air pressure to the transmission. Nothing. I applied more pressure. Nothing. I then cracked open the one of the lines leading to the "box" beneath the steering wheel and once again, applied air pressure to the transmission. Nothing. I applied more pressure, (perhaps up to ten pounds). Nothing. Each time I removed the cap from the transmission filler hole, air would rush out, so I knew pressure was building, it just wasn't going anywhere. I got a cup of coffee, sat down and did some thinking. Beneath the seat on this tractor is a metal plat held in place by in place by 16 13 mm. bolts. "Self" I said to myself, "I wonder what's under that plate." To remove the plate, I had to remove the seat which is held in place by 13 mm. four bolts. I took 13 mm. wrench in hand and started turning bolts. I was standing at the back of the tractor, removing the two back bolts when I noticed for the first time, that the seat on this tractor has a "John Deere" logo stamped on the back. I noticed as well that the frame the seat rests upon appears to be homemade. Whoever made it did a good job, but it didn't look "factory" made. Once I removed the seat, I saw that the top of the plate beneath the seat was covered in dirt, grease and oil. "Self," I said to myself, "if I don't clean that off, all that gunk and dirt is going to fall into my transmission." So I took an old paint brush, poured a little gasoline in a coffee can and started cleaning. That's when I found it. A plastic cap a little bit bigger than a quarter. I looked. I studied, I ponder. "Could it be?" Hesitantly, I unscrewed the cap and removed it. Sure enough, it was another filler hole, and the plastic cap had a little dip stick attached. I looked down into the hole - bone dry. I sat, I pondered. "Self," I said to myself, "this HAS to be where you fill the power steering." "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" I said as I fetched my last five gallon bucket of hydraulic oil. I added two and a half gallons of fluid, which brought the level up to the top line on the dip stick of my newly found plastic plug. "This is it." "Aren't I silly," "Why hadn't I found this little cap when I first started working on this thing." These were the thoughts that raced through my mind as I reinstalled the serat, certain and sure that within minutes, I would be happily driving "Big Green Ugly" over hill and dell. I cranked the tractor. Nothing. No fluid flowing, no power steering response. Nothing. I shut the tractor down, (I ran it for about a minute). I was sad. I sat. I pondered. Taking my 13 mm wrench back in hand, I removed the John Deere seat yet again. Then I removed the 16 bolts from the plate that sits beneath the seat and bumped it loose with my magic hammer, (it's the hammer I use to bump the starter in my Case when it won't start). I lift the plate from the top of the transmission and look inside. I see fluid. "Self," I say to myself, "the only way to see what's inside is to remove the fluid." I get a siphon hose and siphon the hydraulic fluid out of the area beneath the seat. Slowly it drains into a clean five gallon bucket. I watch and witness various things as the fluid level drops. There's a thingy one one side, another thingy back in the corner, a big thingy up front and lots of crud on the bottom. Finally, as the fluid is almost drained, I see a silver/grey thingy way down at the bottom, back in the upper left hand corner, (looking from the back of the tractor). This grey/silver thingy has a white plastic cap. On top of the white plastic cap is a spring clip. At that very moment, the solar eclipse passes overhead (seriously). I take that as a sign. First things first. I grab a roll of shop towels, (the blue kind), and begin cleaning all the crud out of this compartment. I use almost an entire role. Then I soak a few shop towels in gasoline and give the compartment a good cleaning, removing all the crud. Now the scary part. What will happen if I undo the spring clip? Will a spring with ball bearings pop out? Will something come loose that will be difficult to reinstall? Will a hydraulic demon grab me and pull me into the dark and frightening inner recesses of the machine? I remember the words: "Go west, young man." I think of the pioneers crossing mountains and deserts. I recollect Moses leading the people of ****** to the promised land. It gives me courage. I reach down and undo the spring. Nothing pops out. No ball bearings, no demon. I take hold of the plastic cap and start to wiggle. Out it comes, a long, plastic frame covered in gunk, as in totally and completely packed with gunk. "Self," I say to myself, "I don't think this is suppose to look like this." I take the plastic piece and spray it with the garden hose. It starts to come clean. I wash it in a coffee can filled with gasoline. It comes cleaner. I repeat this process over and over until it is completely clean. It's a screen within the system. A screen that was packed with gunk. A screen that is now clean. I blow it dry with my air hose and reinstall. I pour the hydraulic fluid back in the tractor and reinstall the plate. I stand at the side of the tractor. I look at the starter button. I feel fear mixed with anticipation. I press the starter button. The tractor roars to life with a symphony of cylinders singing their happy song. Within seconds, fluid sprays from every fitting I have cracked open coating everything within five feet of the tractor in hydraulic oil. Quickly I shut it down. I check the newly found plastic cap and dipstick which shows low fluid. I add more fluid, tighten all fittings, crank the tractor again. I reach up and turn the steering wheel. "Bump, bump, bump" and then, the front wheels respond - with ease. In less than a minute, I'm able to turn the steering wheel with one finger - WITH ONE FINGER! I cry tears of joy. I promise to fulfill all vows I have made to the gods of all things hydraulic. I shut the tractor down, reinstall the seat, (the John Deere seat with it's homemade frame which hid the little plastic cap). I crank the tractor up and start driving. I drive all over the property, up and down, back and forth, turning left to right and right to left. I make circles and figure eights. I drive fast and slow. I shift gears from low to high and back to low and all points in between. I am happy. A big thank you to everyone who gave guidance and assistance, help and support in making "Big Green Ugly" live again.
 
/ Power steering problems #17  
Not familiar with Deutz but would be very surprised if they run 80W90 for the hydraulics and power steering. I suspect hy-trans would be a better choice but again not 100% sure of this. If the pump is starving for oil & If their is enough air in the steering system then yes the steering wheel would spin freely. The stiff slow sluggish turning was from low oil volume being supplied.

I would strongly recommend you stop running this tractor or you may ruin the pump from lack of oil.

If you do change to hy-trans you will have to drain as much of the 80W90 out as possible. You may also have to change or clean the suction screens or filters if this model has them.

+1 with 'oldnslo'.

Tractors are like humans - They aren't meant to 'leak' fluids. :eek:

Drain the 80W90 out. It is incorrect.

Locate and remove the Suction Filter screen and clean it thoroughly.

Replace the Hydraulic Filter can.

Remove the Steering Ram and have the leaking seals repaired.

Reassemble and tighten hose connections.

Fill transmission with the Hy-Trans mentioned or something similar from your local tractor dealership. Not 80W90.

Start engine and cycle the steering wheel a few times and check for correct operation.

The "box with pipes under the dash" is the Steering Orbital" valve. It is somewhat complex. Ask PO if it is possible he carried out any work here involving removal/refitting of hoses whereby he may have fitted a couple in incorrect locations? It is not uncommon. Usually causes stiff steering or Steering Wheel becoming self-moving. :confused2:

:wrench:

Well, we were on the right track. :)
The presence of 'Gunk' and water as you described was a pointer. Suggest you take the time to repeat the oil change and flush/clean again in the near future. Gunk gets everywhere.

Enjoy turning your corners!!

:drink:
 
/ Power steering problems #18  
Congratulations on having the perseverance on getting the "Big Green Ugly" back in operation, Or in other words Stubborness will overcome common sense :thumbs:

A little surprised that the screen is that hard to access but then how many times in normal use do you need to access it??
 

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