TractorLegend
Platinum Member
i mean "welds"
my spelling looks similar /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
my spelling looks similar /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Pre-Welding for a novice
- Thread starter JasonL
- Start date
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I am no expert but as I have recently moved into the world of welding I will relay what I have learnt.
I would say it depends what you are planning to weld that makes the differnece as to what tool you get. A MIG (metal inert gas) is traditionally made to weld thinner steels. An ARC welder is for thick steel. TIG is for welding non ferrous metal such as aluminium and stainless. From this you can decide which type you need (bearing in mind ARC with care can also weld thinner metal) or you could go for a all in one machine.
An alternativce is gas welding, a combination of oxygen and acetelene creates a high temp flame (1200oC or ther abouts) and a filler is fed in by hand. This is good on thinner metal. The cost can be realtively high as consumable gas is a tad pricey. This is probably the hardest type of welding to master (bar TIG) but when masterd the other types become easy.
ARC machines are generally the most simple, crating an arc between an earthed peice of mtal and a charged electode. As the charge jumps the small gap (1-5mm) it creates heat and melts the metal. The electrode melts down to provide the filler and the coating is the flux. This is probably the best for a farmer ect who wants to burn though rust and paint and weld 1" material. Prices start about £40 for a cheap (but effective) welder. The only consumable is electrodes which arent too expensive. It isnt too hard to master, you just have to hold the electrode the right distance from the surface as it burns down and move it to fuse the metals together. It will help you master other types better.
MIG is generally for thinner metals but you can weld thicker metals with the larger units. There are 2 consumables, welding wire (the filler) and argoshield (mixture of argon and CO2). It is in effect like arc welding but you simply hold the gun above the metal surface and push the trigger. Wire is fed out to the weld providing the filler automatically and argosheild is released which does the job of flux. It is in effect a really hot glue gun for metal. Very easy to do with good results but can get pricey of ra decent unit and with the 2 consumables.
TIG is similar to arc except the electrode is a solid tungsen bar. The power jumps the gap between that and the grounded work piece creating heat. A filler rod is fed in by hand. This is very hard to do but gives excellnt welds when done nicely and can weld obscure metals. A tad pricey to equip, not for the first timer.
Overall i would go for the arc, unles you are looking to weld thin metals. I bought a £40 buzzbox arc welder and am very impressed. I can make substantial projects and for a very low cost. To start with i would have a go on whichever metod you choose first to see if its for you nad to decide how much you are willing to set aside to buy your equipment.
I hope this information helps you, its what i learnt when in the similar situation to you.
Thanks
I would say it depends what you are planning to weld that makes the differnece as to what tool you get. A MIG (metal inert gas) is traditionally made to weld thinner steels. An ARC welder is for thick steel. TIG is for welding non ferrous metal such as aluminium and stainless. From this you can decide which type you need (bearing in mind ARC with care can also weld thinner metal) or you could go for a all in one machine.
An alternativce is gas welding, a combination of oxygen and acetelene creates a high temp flame (1200oC or ther abouts) and a filler is fed in by hand. This is good on thinner metal. The cost can be realtively high as consumable gas is a tad pricey. This is probably the hardest type of welding to master (bar TIG) but when masterd the other types become easy.
ARC machines are generally the most simple, crating an arc between an earthed peice of mtal and a charged electode. As the charge jumps the small gap (1-5mm) it creates heat and melts the metal. The electrode melts down to provide the filler and the coating is the flux. This is probably the best for a farmer ect who wants to burn though rust and paint and weld 1" material. Prices start about £40 for a cheap (but effective) welder. The only consumable is electrodes which arent too expensive. It isnt too hard to master, you just have to hold the electrode the right distance from the surface as it burns down and move it to fuse the metals together. It will help you master other types better.
MIG is generally for thinner metals but you can weld thicker metals with the larger units. There are 2 consumables, welding wire (the filler) and argoshield (mixture of argon and CO2). It is in effect like arc welding but you simply hold the gun above the metal surface and push the trigger. Wire is fed out to the weld providing the filler automatically and argosheild is released which does the job of flux. It is in effect a really hot glue gun for metal. Very easy to do with good results but can get pricey of ra decent unit and with the 2 consumables.
TIG is similar to arc except the electrode is a solid tungsen bar. The power jumps the gap between that and the grounded work piece creating heat. A filler rod is fed in by hand. This is very hard to do but gives excellnt welds when done nicely and can weld obscure metals. A tad pricey to equip, not for the first timer.
Overall i would go for the arc, unles you are looking to weld thin metals. I bought a £40 buzzbox arc welder and am very impressed. I can make substantial projects and for a very low cost. To start with i would have a go on whichever metod you choose first to see if its for you nad to decide how much you are willing to set aside to buy your equipment.
I hope this information helps you, its what i learnt when in the similar situation to you.
Thanks
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Agree with about all you said,,,BUT,,,,,,ONE THING,,,,you are not supposed to weld on rust,,paint,,,or anything else,,,,no matter what process you are using,,,,clean your heat affected zone down to metal,,,shiny metal if possible,,,[and it generally is,,,right??],,,,,why would you want to do other wise,,,you don't want to contaminate your weld puddle,,with anything if you can help it,,,,sometimes,[hardly ever],,,we ain't got a choice,,,but generally we do,,,grind/brush it off before welding with any process.
Second,,,your discription of mig welding,,,,,hot glue gun,,,,well,,,that is exactly what most beginners do with a mig,,,lack of fusion/cold lap is very easy to get with a mig,,,,after a little practice,,most can generaly make half way good looking bead,,,,,but most of the time,,,beauty is only skin deep,,,,you got to turn the heat up to get a good weld with a mig,,,you got to move your gun,,,to pinpoint that little puddle so's it ties in,,,,,now if you're just welding sheet metal,,,well,,not so important,,[for many reasons],,,but you can weld about any thickness steel,,with a mig,,,,,and I'm talking short circuiting method,,,,but you got to know what your doing,,,,,you turn the heat up and move your gun like your supposed to,,and get out of the flat postion,,,it ain't near as easy anymore,,,,,
lastly,,,you say it ain't to hard to master [stick welding],,,,,hummm,,,,,tell that to a pipewelder,,,who makes x-ray quality welds every day,,,if you do finally ABOUT get it MASTERED,,,you can expect to earn about 30 bucks an hr,,,or more,,,for your troubles,,,,course thats if you ABOUT get it mastered,,,, but yeah,,,would recommend any newbie getting a stick rod machine,,,,get one that puts out dirrect current,,,,d.c.e.p.,,,[direct current electrode positive],,runs a lot better than a.c.,[alternating current],,on steel,,,,you can get little dia. rods for thin stuff,,[smaller dia. takes this current to run,,thus,less heat],,,,and some bigger dia. for thicker stuff,,,you need a machine that will at least burn a 1/8" dia. rod,,,all day long,,,,,thats where DUTY CYCLE of machine comes in,,,duty cycle is generally considered how many min out of 10 it will continuasly run at a given amperage,,with out over heating machine,,,,important for all welding machines,,,a little less so with stick machines than say a mig,,,,but another thing to consider when buying,,,,,,,thingy
Second,,,your discription of mig welding,,,,,hot glue gun,,,,well,,,that is exactly what most beginners do with a mig,,,lack of fusion/cold lap is very easy to get with a mig,,,,after a little practice,,most can generaly make half way good looking bead,,,,,but most of the time,,,beauty is only skin deep,,,,you got to turn the heat up to get a good weld with a mig,,,you got to move your gun,,,to pinpoint that little puddle so's it ties in,,,,,now if you're just welding sheet metal,,,well,,not so important,,[for many reasons],,,but you can weld about any thickness steel,,with a mig,,,,,and I'm talking short circuiting method,,,,but you got to know what your doing,,,,,you turn the heat up and move your gun like your supposed to,,and get out of the flat postion,,,it ain't near as easy anymore,,,,,
lastly,,,you say it ain't to hard to master [stick welding],,,,,hummm,,,,,tell that to a pipewelder,,,who makes x-ray quality welds every day,,,if you do finally ABOUT get it MASTERED,,,you can expect to earn about 30 bucks an hr,,,or more,,,for your troubles,,,,course thats if you ABOUT get it mastered,,,, but yeah,,,would recommend any newbie getting a stick rod machine,,,,get one that puts out dirrect current,,,,d.c.e.p.,,,[direct current electrode positive],,runs a lot better than a.c.,[alternating current],,on steel,,,,you can get little dia. rods for thin stuff,,[smaller dia. takes this current to run,,thus,less heat],,,,and some bigger dia. for thicker stuff,,,you need a machine that will at least burn a 1/8" dia. rod,,,all day long,,,,,thats where DUTY CYCLE of machine comes in,,,duty cycle is generally considered how many min out of 10 it will continuasly run at a given amperage,,with out over heating machine,,,,important for all welding machines,,,a little less so with stick machines than say a mig,,,,but another thing to consider when buying,,,,,,,thingy
SkyPup
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I recently purchased a Millermatic 210 MIG (220V) and a Miller Spectrum 375 Plasma Cutter (220V) for my shop. With these two machines I can handle virtually any thickness metal on my cars, trucks, and tractors as the thickest piece of steel I've measured yet on any of them is 3/8".
Read some good welding books of the various welding processes from the bookstore and then get together with some friends that have experience welding and can help you practice. That will help get you going fast.
Read some good welding books of the various welding processes from the bookstore and then get together with some friends that have experience welding and can help you practice. That will help get you going fast.
Thingy, you are 100% correct in what you say. But....
I weld through rust. If a welder couldnt I wouldnt buy it. I make functional unpretty things and therfore dont scrub off rust and paint. It welds up good but dont look so good, suits me. I know youre not supposed to, but I go for function and ease.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Can someone explain the basics? )</font>
Were talking basics here. I think X-ray quality is a bit extreme. Were taking welding 2 peices of metal so they become 1.
I put this in a way that gets across the ideas, the MIG glue gun was just a way of explaining it, now I know the processes are totally different but it gets across the basic idea pretty well I thought.
As to duty cycle, if 60% aint good enough for your home user needs you need to slow down and take more breaks. it never troubles me, if it overheats its time for a cup of tea! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Either way, this Gentleman is asking about the basics of welding, although we havent yet been told of the application im fairly sure we arent going to need to recommend $1000's of equipment suitable for your seasoned professional. Asi realted at the top of my post, when I was in a similar situation to what I interpret this gentlemans to be this was the advice that was offered to me and I believe I have been sucessful in my entry into welding based on this advice.
Thanks
I weld through rust. If a welder couldnt I wouldnt buy it. I make functional unpretty things and therfore dont scrub off rust and paint. It welds up good but dont look so good, suits me. I know youre not supposed to, but I go for function and ease.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Can someone explain the basics? )</font>
Were talking basics here. I think X-ray quality is a bit extreme. Were taking welding 2 peices of metal so they become 1.
I put this in a way that gets across the ideas, the MIG glue gun was just a way of explaining it, now I know the processes are totally different but it gets across the basic idea pretty well I thought.
As to duty cycle, if 60% aint good enough for your home user needs you need to slow down and take more breaks. it never troubles me, if it overheats its time for a cup of tea! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Either way, this Gentleman is asking about the basics of welding, although we havent yet been told of the application im fairly sure we arent going to need to recommend $1000's of equipment suitable for your seasoned professional. Asi realted at the top of my post, when I was in a similar situation to what I interpret this gentlemans to be this was the advice that was offered to me and I believe I have been sucessful in my entry into welding based on this advice.
Thanks
Well,,,as a professional,,,it gets me when it is recommened to a beginner that it is fine and normal to not clean your heat affected zone before welding,,,its one of the basics,,,you clean it IF you can,,,[and 95 percent of time,,,you can],,,,and the x-ray remark,,,was brought up because you said you could pretty fast MASTER the art of stick welding,,,,course it all depends on what you mean by master,,,,,my idea is to pass a pipe test in 45 degree fixed postion,,,up and down hill,,on mild steel,,stainless steel,,inconel,,,etc,,,,heavy and light wall pipe,,,and than get it to pass an x-ray test,,,your idea is different,,maybe,,,,,,,and the mig being compared to a hot glue gun is exactlly how most home welders use it,,,might be alright for a lawn mower or something,,but wouldn't want to be pulling a trailer made with that idea in the makers head,,,,thats all,,,,,,,not trying to give you a hard time,,,just stating some facts,,,,thingy
johnday
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40Kchicks; Now we know who has the bucks on this site. That ESAB is one fine machine. At this point it's one of those dream machines, but if I get real good at saving my nickels and dimes...... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
OP
JasonL
Silver Member
Mith-- I really appreciate your help. You explained everything well. Basically, I am a carpenter/woodworker, that is planning to build my own home. I Bought some land. Then I bought a tractor. Then I got some implements. Then I wanted to improve on them. Then I realized I need to learn to weld. So- I need the basics, however, I don't like to limit myself (my money or lack thereof usely does) so I want to get something versatile. My wife thinks I am setting the house back years with all my toys! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif She's probably right, but I just can't help myself! THANKS Jason
Spiffy
Veteran Member
If you are looking for truely versatile; I'd second my earlier post and say start with the Oxy-Actelylene [with several welding tips and a cutting head]; it's entirely portable too. You can weld a pretty good range of thickness [thought not the ease of MIG on real thin nor the penatration of DC on real thick]; also you may be amazed how many things are better brazed than welded. Since I bought a Sawzall, the cutting torch doesn't get used as much, but sometimes you still can't beat it.
Your biggest expense would be tank purchase, but I'm thinking you should be able to find a good rental contract to keep things cheap.
I wouldn't actually say welding with a torch is the most difficult per se, but you move much slower [in the "forward" direction anyway] than stick or mig and there is an art to adding filler metal. For someone with no prior bad habits, the slower rate does have the advantage of letting you really see what is happening at the weld.
I'd add a stick and wirefeed when you get the chance or need. Or I too drool over the high end combination units, but too many cheaper toys are still on my list. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
BTW I can get some pretty decent looking welds on any of the above...about the time I'm finished with the project! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Your biggest expense would be tank purchase, but I'm thinking you should be able to find a good rental contract to keep things cheap.
I wouldn't actually say welding with a torch is the most difficult per se, but you move much slower [in the "forward" direction anyway] than stick or mig and there is an art to adding filler metal. For someone with no prior bad habits, the slower rate does have the advantage of letting you really see what is happening at the weld.
I'd add a stick and wirefeed when you get the chance or need. Or I too drool over the high end combination units, but too many cheaper toys are still on my list. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
BTW I can get some pretty decent looking welds on any of the above...about the time I'm finished with the project! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Soundguy
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Thingy, you are 100% correct in what you say. But....
)</font>
Myth.. as most of us have found out.. you're pretty much just exercising yer jaw with thingy..... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I weld through rust. If a welder couldnt I wouldnt buy it. I make functional unpretty things and therfore dont scrub off rust and paint. )</font>
I 100% agree. For the average 'farmer' welding jobs.. a big honkin ac buzzbox and a beefy electrode will do the job.. no matter it it has 1/16 coat of paint over a rusty surface. You get soooo much penetration.. that the first bit of arc is blown / burned off like splatter and floats to the top of the puddle like flux and slag anyway.
The bigger migs can do that.. but in general.. for 'rough duty / bad environment welding... stick is hard to beat.
The best part about it is being able to swap electrodes out for different work.. you aren't tied to a single 'catch-all ' spool for each job.
For sheet metal work, I buy a brand of 1/16 and 5/64 rod called surestrike.. I'd swear that you could strike an arc and draw a bead on a wet piece of cardboard with those rods... great for beginners too, as they are very hard to make stick.
Soundguy
)</font>
Myth.. as most of us have found out.. you're pretty much just exercising yer jaw with thingy..... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I weld through rust. If a welder couldnt I wouldnt buy it. I make functional unpretty things and therfore dont scrub off rust and paint. )</font>
I 100% agree. For the average 'farmer' welding jobs.. a big honkin ac buzzbox and a beefy electrode will do the job.. no matter it it has 1/16 coat of paint over a rusty surface. You get soooo much penetration.. that the first bit of arc is blown / burned off like splatter and floats to the top of the puddle like flux and slag anyway.
The bigger migs can do that.. but in general.. for 'rough duty / bad environment welding... stick is hard to beat.
The best part about it is being able to swap electrodes out for different work.. you aren't tied to a single 'catch-all ' spool for each job.
For sheet metal work, I buy a brand of 1/16 and 5/64 rod called surestrike.. I'd swear that you could strike an arc and draw a bead on a wet piece of cardboard with those rods... great for beginners too, as they are very hard to make stick.
Soundguy
