Buying Advice Prices seem up for both new and used...

[prof fate]

Emmssions 'crap' can be removed...many did it to 70s cars and I met a guy that did it a 5 year old Ford pickup. Claims his MPG doubled too.

Car computers were indeed black boxes and just about nobody over 50 messes with fuel injection like they did with carbs 25 years ago, but it can be done. You can buy off the shelf EFI kits for any car (or engine) or google a bit and find ones you can BUILD from junk yard components and freeware on a laptop for programming.

Maybe I am missing something...

I have several restored and working tractors from the 1940's and early 1950's... Ford, Deere and Farmall…

No qalms saying I expect these tractors will last forever... and still perform and capable as when new.

Same with my antique cars...

The kicker is I have seen a lot of high end mostly foreign cars that are so complicated emission wise they are often scrapped when emission problems crop up 10 to 15 years out... parts no longer available, manufacturer out of business or sold... and it only gets worse...

Then there is the VW, Audi debacle over Diesel... owners were most satisfied but the vehicles did not meet the standards required... the parts for the affected vehicles are removed from the shelf as they cars are not supposed to be driven... even have issues with some of my gas powered equipment... manufactures decide something is obsolete because it no longer meets current standards...

We have all seen things like this... often called forced retirement.

So... I wonder just how many 25 to 60 hp tier IV final diesel tractors will still be viable when they are 60+ years old like my 1953 Jubilee?

Remember... it might take a decade of more for most of us to put on the same hours that someone in business does in 6 months... and if bought new... any problems are the Manufacturers problem... once the warranty is over... it lands squarely on the owner...

Seen this with new cars... leasing is huge again here... I work with many that have not Owned a car in years... they simply don't want to own out of warranty and willing to pay a premium.

 

[prof fate]

The issue will be self-resolving.

Watched a video on youtube (Can't find it now) where a professor/futurist/consultant talks about the upcoming revolution in transportation. His prediction is 10, 15 at most 20 years, we'll all be driving elec cars, if we have our own cars at all.

Massive change (from horse to car - less than 13 years - and we had to invent the auto industry, dealers, roads, gasoline, filling stations and distrubution, etc), cell phones (ATT in 1985 said there would be 900k cell phones by 2000...there were 11 million...) not to mention internet, etc. CHANGE occurs when multiple things converge - a gas car has 2000 moving parts. an elec car 20. Battery tech (price/storage) is improving at ever faster rates (13% a year 5 years ago, 18% a year now). UBER and self driving cars are coming. An elec car uses $300/elec a year vs $2500 plus in gasoline...economics say uber and such will move to elec cars - they'll have to. If you can hail an uber for $3/ride owning car makes no economic sense. Especially for city dwellers which are what, 60% of us now?

You can buy 3 or 4 cars NOW that do over 200mi on a charge, for less than $40k. The AVERAGE car is $36k now. So yeah, cost of an elec car, fuel included, is CHEAPER than a gas car. And no oil changes!

The problem won't be your tractor working in 40 years - it will finding fuel to run it!

This is especially true for business use... entire fleets had to be retired by law in California or be retrofitted for continued use...

So far the non business user still has greater options..

What I find interesting is Government users are mostly exempt from emission conformance... this if often a problem when the State is selling surplus vehicles and equipment with hardware removed... especially with retired police cruisers.

 

[rScotty]

Emmssions 'crap' can be removed...many did it to 70s cars and I met a guy that did it a 5 year old Ford pickup. Claims his MPG doubled too.

Car computers were indeed black boxes and just about nobody over 50 messes with fuel injection like they did with carbs 25 years ago, but it can be done. You can buy off the shelf EFI kits for any car (or engine) or google a bit and find ones you can BUILD from junk yard components and freeware on a laptop for programming.

Prof, you may be on to something. I was around doing mechanical work on used cars in the 60s & 70s. and yes - we did remove a lot of emissions equipment. BTW, the gov't countered by requiring annual emissions inspections.... and so the wheel goes around.

But what I noticed at the time was that the original owners of emissions-equipped vehicles couldn't care less about emissions or the price of fuel. They simply did not notice. It was only when the cars hit the secondary market and became available to lower income second-hand car buyers that the things got innovative mechanically, electrically, and emission-wise.
Some of the innovation required a pretty high degree of sophistication from the second hand car owners & mechanics.

With any luck, perhaps that will happen again as the ultra-high tech cars and tractors may become quite attractive & affordable if only the electronics and emissions can be dealt with innovatively.

Like so much else, the answer is knowledge.
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

The issue will be self-resolving.

Watched a video on youtube (Can't find it now) where a professor/futurist/consultant talks about the upcoming revolution in transportation. His prediction is 10, 15 at most 20 years, we'll all be driving elec cars, if we have our own cars at all.

Massive change (from horse to car - less than 13 years - and we had to invent the auto industry, dealers, roads, gasoline, filling stations and distrubution, etc), cell phones (ATT in 1985 said there would be 900k cell phones by 2000...there were 11 million...) not to mention internet, etc. CHANGE occurs when multiple things converge - a gas car has 2000 moving parts. an elec car 20. Battery tech (price/storage) is improving at ever faster rates (13% a year 5 years ago, 18% a year now). UBER and self driving cars are coming. An elec car uses $300/elec a year vs $2500 plus in gasoline...economics say uber and such will move to elec cars - they'll have to. If you can hail an uber for $3/ride owning car makes no economic sense. Especially for city dwellers which are what, 60% of us now?

You can buy 3 or 4 cars NOW that do over 200mi on a charge, for less than $40k. The AVERAGE car is $36k now. So yeah, cost of an elec car, fuel included, is CHEAPER than a gas car. And no oil changes!

The problem won't be your tractor working in 40 years - it will finding fuel to run it!

Of course nobody knows the future, but I kind of doubt that line of reasoning will prevail. The problem with that argument is that it assumes that people decide things for financial reasons alone. What I've noticed is that people tend to talk about doing things for economic reasons, but when it comes to actually deciding what to do they tend to decide things emotionally, not financially.

We sure do like our toys....
rScotty

 

[Industrial Toys]

"Removing" emissions equipment on the latest fully computer controlled equipment, I think, is a naive notion. Maybe if you hack the coding and re-engineer the thing. Just a thought. Not just a matter of punching out a cat.

 

[rScotty]

"Removing" emissions equipment on the latest fully computer controlled equipment, I think, is a naive notion. Maybe if you hack the coding and re-engineer the thing. Just a thought. Not just a matter of punching out a cat.

I disagree, because I believe that what one person can write, another can hack.

I'm not saying I can do it because I can't. But I understand the process well enough to know that unlike rodding a cat - which had to be done one-by-one on every car - removing the modern equivalent restriction only takes one person figuring out how to do it one time. After that it works for everyone.

And I have a lot of faith in kids that want their toys in spite of having more time than money.
rScotty

 

[ultrarunner]

The problem won't be your tractor working in 40 years - it will finding fuel to run it!

Not as long as I have fryer grease... actually run the L3800 on vegetable oil... smells like french fries...

 

[ultrarunner]

I disagree, because I believe that what one person can write, another can hack.

I'm not saying I can do it because I can't. But I understand the process well enough to know that unlike rodding a cat - which had to be done one-by-one on every car - removing the modern equivalent restriction only takes one person figuring out how to do it one time. After that it works for everyone.

And I have a lot of faith in kids that want their toys in spite of having more time than money.
rScotty

Maybe someone will come up with an app for that... use your I phone to tune your onboard computer... I'm always in the keep it simple camp... probably why I still use a rotary dial and my Zenith TV has rabbit ears... I did say a Model A Ford was my first car.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I can only say, good luck with that! I'm glad I have pre-computer, low hour equipment.

 

[rademamj]

When I bought my Kioti tractor, I was absolutely concerned by Tier 4 emissions and after three automatic regens on the tractor at 18, 67 and 128 hours; I am no longer concerned. The last regen occured while rotary cutting a field, and if not for the automatic 300rpm increase while cutting, i would not have even know the regen occurred.

I have talked to a few Kioti tractor owners about their regen issues.....they report nothing....no problems. And one of those Kioti owners does contract work for Texas DOT doing interstate mowing....800 hours per year for 3 years now and not a single Tier 4 issue.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I know there have been issues on new machines. But it's the ten to fifteen year time span I would be worried about. Like has been said, they maybe ready for the scrap yard then as the cost to repair and troubleshoot them may be too expensive. And parts probably unavailable.

 

[prof fate]

Screwy govt...

Here in pa SOME counties need annual emmissions inspection (on a machine) and others do not (just a visual check).

If you drive less than 5k miles a year you are exempt - for emissions TEST, completely exempt. In a visual county, nope, all the 'crap' has to be on your vehicle.

SO - when I had a 90 wrangler with a small block chevy in it I was completely exempt as I drove it little in a county with emmissions. If I lived 5 miles north...another county w/o emmissions..the jeep would have been illegal to drive.

My F350 is registered at 10,500 lbs, $300/year for the lic plate, exempt dut to GVWR/registration.
I can register it at 9500lb for $240 and get emissions test which is about $60.

So in MY county you can remove your diesel, driver under 5k and be legal. Go north and no, you're not legal.

Logical? Nope.
But that's the gov't for ya

Prof, you may be on to something. I was around doing mechanical work on used cars in the 60s & 70s. and yes - we did remove a lot of emissions equipment. BTW, the gov't countered by requiring annual emissions inspections.... and so the wheel goes around.

But what I noticed at the time was that the original owners of emissions-equipped vehicles couldn't care less about emissions or the price of fuel. They simply did not notice. It was only when the cars hit the secondary market and became available to lower income second-hand car buyers that the things got innovative mechanically, electrically, and emission-wise.
Some of the innovation required a pretty high degree of sophistication from the second hand car owners & mechanics.

With any luck, perhaps that will happen again as the ultra-high tech cars and tractors may become quite attractive & affordable if only the electronics and emissions can be dealt with innovatively.

Like so much else, the answer is knowledge.
rScotty

 

[prof fate]

ATT in 1985 was on of the biggest companies in teh world, all kinds of expertise and experts. THeir predictions were cell phones weren't gonna be abig deal.
SO how could the smartest/richest company get is SOOOO wrong (over 100 fold wrong?). And that was BEFORE the iPhone exploded on the scene.

****, 25 years ago if ANYONE told you that half of everyone would spend $800 plus on a TELEPHONE, you'd have been dumbfounded. Yet we do...

Guy showed ia pic of NYC in 1902 - one car in the picture of a VERY crowded street. 1915, same street - ONE horse and lots of cars. We used horses for hundreds if not thousands of years - yet a complete transformation in about a decade.

30 years ago we went from records or tapes to CDs..now nobody under 20 even buys music, they subscribe.

Many things are now a subscription.

A car costs what, $400 a month payment? Gas another $200, insurance 100 more, plus maybe parking and maintenance. $700/month? Paid off it's still $300/month.

What if I could offer you a FAMILY subscription to uber rides for $499 a month? Oh, and your groceries will be delivered (a store is doing that now, $5.95), to go meals delivered (uber eats now)...

It's not a matter of IF or perhaps even PRICE - go to an urban area and look at zipcar and others - lots of scooters and bikes. Use your app / ATM card to unlock and use it.

Self driving cars...who cares? Think DAY TO DAY - you go to the store - dropped at the door and the car parks itself. picks you up at the door too. Nice idea, huh? No more hunting for a parking space- car can just circle the block if need be.

As soon as your friend has it you'll want it.

Maps? GONE. GPS units? GONE - my phone does it all. If I told in 20 years ago your phone would replace maps you'd have asked if I was drunk. Yet EVERYONE adopted this without a second thought, huh?

Alexa and such...just wait. They're Gen 1..like a flip phone was...

Of course nobody knows the future, but I kind of doubt that line of reasoning will prevail. The problem with that argument is that it assumes that people decide things for financial reasons alone. What I've noticed is that people tend to talk about doing things for economic reasons, but when it comes to actually deciding what to do they tend to decide things emotionally, not financially.

We sure do like our toys....
rScotty

 

[ultrarunner]

Many things are possible in urban cores and elsewhere money can be made...

Maybe the cities will once again be the draw and the Techno Peasants subjected to the hinterlands?

 

[Industrial Toys]

EVERYONE adopted it? I still use paper maps. I prefer them.

I only gave up a flip phone a little while ago, because it broke and only got a cell phone over my pager, maybe two years ago.

Generally speaking, I couldn't care less what the sheep are doing.

Maybe when you don't owe money and never have, you see things differently. You aren't on that hamster wheel.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yep... I have paper maps in all the cars and carried a pager for 22 years and it worked everywhere...

Then I was given a little Nokia for work... caused lots of grief as it often went to Voice Mail... where I live is a no coverage zone... after 6 years the sim went out and provider was unable to remedy...

New phone is a smart phone... I do like be able to take pictures for work... but there is no data plan so need wifi to send... it is OK but still coverage issues...

I like what works... see no need to change if what I have meets my needs.

 

[rScotty]

Yep... I have paper maps in all the cars and carried a pager for 22 years and it worked everywhere...

Then I was given a little Nokia for work... caused lots of grief as it often went to Voice Mail... where I live is a no coverage zone... after 6 years the sim went out and provider was unable to remedy...

New phone is a smart phone... I do like be able to take pictures for work... but there is no data plan so need wifi to send... it is OK but still coverage issues...

I like what works... see no need to change if what I have meets my needs.

You sure identified one of the big problems with cell phones: limited coverage. It has given the urban dwellers a much louder voice than before. Most of the rural West still has little or no cell phone coverage.

 

[Industrial Toys]

There are people that I simply don't stay in touch with anymore. Like a friend and neighbor from the city. He used to have a hard wired phone. If I saw they were up, I would call them, and most times they would answer, even if outside with a cordless. Now he cancelled his hard wired phone in favor of his cell phone. Nine out of ten times I get voice mail and when establishing a conversation, it is noisy, and often has echo.

I simply can't be bothered! OR have yet another thing frustrate me. If he is content with garbage communication, that's his business, but count me out. Same with a few others.

In fact, I still have two hard wired lines and excellent cell coverage. My cell long distance is flat rate, my landline long distance isn't. but if I deem a call important, I use the more expensive hard wired line.

 

[ultrarunner]

They have contacted a Dealer with Harvest Return 2018 L2501HST DT with 525 Loader

This is not a good week to tractor shop as a lot of people in Tractor Sales are simply away for the Holiday.

I think this would work for them as no plans to use a 6' Rotary Cutter and the lift capacity of the L I think is the same and the L2501 does not have Regen...

 

[prof fate]

B&W tv, hand crank start cars, phones attched to walls - all worked just fine.
Yet all are obsolete.

I suppose there are folks without central heating too, or electricity or indoor plumbing or still use a horse for transportation - I mean, besides the Amish (who often have cell phones these days BTW)

Yep... I have paper maps in all the cars and carried a pager for 22 years and it worked everywhere...

Then I was given a little Nokia for work... caused lots of grief as it often went to Voice Mail... where I live is a no coverage zone... after 6 years the sim went out and provider was unable to remedy...

New phone is a smart phone... I do like be able to take pictures for work... but there is no data plan so need wifi to send... it is OK but still coverage issues...

I like what works... see no need to change if what I have meets my needs.