Buying Advice Prices seem up for both new and used...

[prof fate]

Emmssions 'crap' can be removed...many did it to 70s cars and I met a guy that did it a 5 year old Ford pickup. Claims his MPG doubled too.

Car computers were indeed black boxes and just about nobody over 50 messes with fuel injection like they did with carbs 25 years ago, but it can be done. You can buy off the shelf EFI kits for any car (or engine) or google a bit and find ones you can BUILD from junk yard components and freeware on a laptop for programming.

Maybe I am missing something...

I have several restored and working tractors from the 1940's and early 1950's... Ford, Deere and Farmall…

No qalms saying I expect these tractors will last forever... and still perform and capable as when new.

Same with my antique cars...

The kicker is I have seen a lot of high end mostly foreign cars that are so complicated emission wise they are often scrapped when emission problems crop up 10 to 15 years out... parts no longer available, manufacturer out of business or sold... and it only gets worse...

Then there is the VW, Audi debacle over Diesel... owners were most satisfied but the vehicles did not meet the standards required... the parts for the affected vehicles are removed from the shelf as they cars are not supposed to be driven... even have issues with some of my gas powered equipment... manufactures decide something is obsolete because it no longer meets current standards...

We have all seen things like this... often called forced retirement.

So... I wonder just how many 25 to 60 hp tier IV final diesel tractors will still be viable when they are 60+ years old like my 1953 Jubilee?

Remember... it might take a decade of more for most of us to put on the same hours that someone in business does in 6 months... and if bought new... any problems are the Manufacturers problem... once the warranty is over... it lands squarely on the owner...

Seen this with new cars... leasing is huge again here... I work with many that have not Owned a car in years... they simply don't want to own out of warranty and willing to pay a premium.

 

[prof fate]

The issue will be self-resolving.

Watched a video on youtube (Can't find it now) where a professor/futurist/consultant talks about the upcoming revolution in transportation. His prediction is 10, 15 at most 20 years, we'll all be driving elec cars, if we have our own cars at all.

Massive change (from horse to car - less than 13 years - and we had to invent the auto industry, dealers, roads, gasoline, filling stations and distrubution, etc), cell phones (ATT in 1985 said there would be 900k cell phones by 2000...there were 11 million...) not to mention internet, etc. CHANGE occurs when multiple things converge - a gas car has 2000 moving parts. an elec car 20. Battery tech (price/storage) is improving at ever faster rates (13% a year 5 years ago, 18% a year now). UBER and self driving cars are coming. An elec car uses $300/elec a year vs $2500 plus in gasoline...economics say uber and such will move to elec cars - they'll have to. If you can hail an uber for $3/ride owning car makes no economic sense. Especially for city dwellers which are what, 60% of us now?

You can buy 3 or 4 cars NOW that do over 200mi on a charge, for less than $40k. The AVERAGE car is $36k now. So yeah, cost of an elec car, fuel included, is CHEAPER than a gas car. And no oil changes!

The problem won't be your tractor working in 40 years - it will finding fuel to run it!

This is especially true for business use... entire fleets had to be retired by law in California or be retrofitted for continued use...

So far the non business user still has greater options..

What I find interesting is Government users are mostly exempt from emission conformance... this if often a problem when the State is selling surplus vehicles and equipment with hardware removed... especially with retired police cruisers.

 

[rScotty]

Emmssions 'crap' can be removed...many did it to 70s cars and I met a guy that did it a 5 year old Ford pickup. Claims his MPG doubled too.

Car computers were indeed black boxes and just about nobody over 50 messes with fuel injection like they did with carbs 25 years ago, but it can be done. You can buy off the shelf EFI kits for any car (or engine) or google a bit and find ones you can BUILD from junk yard components and freeware on a laptop for programming.

Prof, you may be on to something. I was around doing mechanical work on used cars in the 60s & 70s. and yes - we did remove a lot of emissions equipment. BTW, the gov't countered by requiring annual emissions inspections.... and so the wheel goes around.

But what I noticed at the time was that the original owners of emissions-equipped vehicles couldn't care less about emissions or the price of fuel. They simply did not notice. It was only when the cars hit the secondary market and became available to lower income second-hand car buyers that the things got innovative mechanically, electrically, and emission-wise.
Some of the innovation required a pretty high degree of sophistication from the second hand car owners & mechanics.

With any luck, perhaps that will happen again as the ultra-high tech cars and tractors may become quite attractive & affordable if only the electronics and emissions can be dealt with innovatively.

Like so much else, the answer is knowledge.
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

The issue will be self-resolving.

Watched a video on youtube (Can't find it now) where a professor/futurist/consultant talks about the upcoming revolution in transportation. His prediction is 10, 15 at most 20 years, we'll all be driving elec cars, if we have our own cars at all.

Massive change (from horse to car - less than 13 years - and we had to invent the auto industry, dealers, roads, gasoline, filling stations and distrubution, etc), cell phones (ATT in 1985 said there would be 900k cell phones by 2000...there were 11 million...) not to mention internet, etc. CHANGE occurs when multiple things converge - a gas car has 2000 moving parts. an elec car 20. Battery tech (price/storage) is improving at ever faster rates (13% a year 5 years ago, 18% a year now). UBER and self driving cars are coming. An elec car uses $300/elec a year vs $2500 plus in gasoline...economics say uber and such will move to elec cars - they'll have to. If you can hail an uber for $3/ride owning car makes no economic sense. Especially for city dwellers which are what, 60% of us now?

You can buy 3 or 4 cars NOW that do over 200mi on a charge, for less than $40k. The AVERAGE car is $36k now. So yeah, cost of an elec car, fuel included, is CHEAPER than a gas car. And no oil changes!

The problem won't be your tractor working in 40 years - it will finding fuel to run it!

Of course nobody knows the future, but I kind of doubt that line of reasoning will prevail. The problem with that argument is that it assumes that people decide things for financial reasons alone. What I've noticed is that people tend to talk about doing things for economic reasons, but when it comes to actually deciding what to do they tend to decide things emotionally, not financially.

We sure do like our toys....
rScotty

 

[Industrial Toys]

"Removing" emissions equipment on the latest fully computer controlled equipment, I think, is a naive notion. Maybe if you hack the coding and re-engineer the thing. Just a thought. Not just a matter of punching out a cat.

 

[rScotty]

"Removing" emissions equipment on the latest fully computer controlled equipment, I think, is a naive notion. Maybe if you hack the coding and re-engineer the thing. Just a thought. Not just a matter of punching out a cat.

I disagree, because I believe that what one person can write, another can hack.

I'm not saying I can do it because I can't. But I understand the process well enough to know that unlike rodding a cat - which had to be done one-by-one on every car - removing the modern equivalent restriction only takes one person figuring out how to do it one time. After that it works for everyone.

And I have a lot of faith in kids that want their toys in spite of having more time than money.
rScotty

 

[ultrarunner]

The problem won't be your tractor working in 40 years - it will finding fuel to run it!

Not as long as I have fryer grease... actually run the L3800 on vegetable oil... smells like french fries...

 

[ultrarunner]

I disagree, because I believe that what one person can write, another can hack.

I'm not saying I can do it because I can't. But I understand the process well enough to know that unlike rodding a cat - which had to be done one-by-one on every car - removing the modern equivalent restriction only takes one person figuring out how to do it one time. After that it works for everyone.

And I have a lot of faith in kids that want their toys in spite of having more time than money.
rScotty

Maybe someone will come up with an app for that... use your I phone to tune your onboard computer... I'm always in the keep it simple camp... probably why I still use a rotary dial and my Zenith TV has rabbit ears... I did say a Model A Ford was my first car.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I can only say, good luck with that! I'm glad I have pre-computer, low hour equipment.

 

[rademamj]

When I bought my Kioti tractor, I was absolutely concerned by Tier 4 emissions and after three automatic regens on the tractor at 18, 67 and 128 hours; I am no longer concerned. The last regen occured while rotary cutting a field, and if not for the automatic 300rpm increase while cutting, i would not have even know the regen occurred.

I have talked to a few Kioti tractor owners about their regen issues.....they report nothing....no problems. And one of those Kioti owners does contract work for Texas DOT doing interstate mowing....800 hours per year for 3 years now and not a single Tier 4 issue.