Propane Gas Fireplace

   / Propane Gas Fireplace #21  
ED, I've been in the business for 25 + yrs & have never been on a call or heard of anyone killed from co produced by un-vented gas logs. There maybe some cases where this has happened but, I've not seen or read it . These logs are designed to burn clean & have an O.D.S. pilot assy. that will shut the logs down if co. levels become a problem.Believe me these O.D.S. pilot systems are sensitive to the least little thing. I don't know of any states where they are not legal( there may be a few) down here they are building all the new garden homes with vent free fire places. I'll bet more people die from co. produced from their gas furnaces/ house fires, etc, than co. from un-vented logs. If that's what makes you feel safe , you have to do what's best for you.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #22  
Yes 85% is great from a zone heater with no duct losses. Really guys, new homes go in with 80% efficient NG furnaces. These gas fireplaces are an effective alternative no central heating systems and the appliances can be run from a wall thermostat, remote control, and even work in a power outage without the blower and the blower is only marginally better at making heat.


I would never install an unvented petroleum burning device inside a modern tightly sealed home. The moisture alone is reason enough. It just feels like bad mojo.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #23  
We live in a big drafty stone house and I used unvented gas heaters for years. They put out a great heat but the cost of propane is not cheap, I am now thinking about putting in a wood stove again for a backup heat source. We started with total electric, then wood and propane, now rice coal, would love to have a geothermal heat pump to replace the coal.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #24  
Ken, I understand these ventless logs are far safer than the kerosene heaters. I would not have any trouble using one in a fireplace that was burning a few hours at a time. It is noteable however that some of the States with the most active public health departments are the ones that make it illegal to use them (Alaska, California, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, New York, Utah, and Colorado ). Consumer Reports, for what it's worth, also discourages them. I think the point is not that the modern ventless systems are likely to kill you overnight (as you mentioned the oxygen monitors would work to prevent that) but rather the unknown hazards of long term exposure to the minor products of combustion. There simply aren't any long term studies that show us these things are safe. You could probably make that argument about other commonly used appliances/habits etc but in this case there is both plausible harm (air pollutants) and a readily available alternative (B vent or direct vent gas heaters).

The immediate overnight safety I am not so worried about. It is the longer term exposure that I find troubling. (I know the quote from Canada did mention that overnight death risk but that is not my main concern). That is even more a concern these days as we learn the importance of "tightening" our houses thereby reducing fresh air exchange. That is particularly a concern for anyone with asthma or other lung disease.

Another concern is that these devices have been around only for 15 years or so. We don't know how long they will perform up to specifications and I doubt seriously that anyone does professional preventive maintenance on something like a ventless fireplace log. Nevertheless, it is certain that heat, moisture, expansion, dust, direct damage etc will eventually cause the heaters to fail in some way or to simply spew out more pollutants. Direct vented and B-vented gas appliances have a fall back safety mechanism that ventless do not have.

Again, I wouldn't have trouble with a ventless design for an occasionally used fireplace but I do have concerns for these devices as primary heating units especially in northern climates where that means full time use for months at a time.

Here is a good short summary of the argument: Ventless Gas Stoves article by Woodstock Soapstone Co.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #25  
Highbeam said:
Yes 85% is great from a zone heater with no duct losses. Really guys, new homes go in with 80% efficient NG furnaces. These gas fireplaces are an effective alternative no central heating systems and the appliances can be run from a wall thermostat, remote control, and even work in a power outage without the blower and the blower is only marginally better at making heat.


I would never install an unvented petroleum burning device inside a modern tightly sealed home. The moisture alone is reason enough. It just feels like bad mojo.

The reason that new homes go with 80% F.A.F. is because, the builder of new homes will not pay the x-tra for a 90+. I have the 90+to save money . Builders don't care if, you the buyer of the new home save money on your fuel bill.If there were still 70% F.A.F.'s out there the builders would put them in.

Direct vent stuff has been around for a long time . Mobile homes have used this for years.With an open vent such as vented logs, the heat that they produce & ( other heat in the house) is constantly being pulled out by the vent as long as the damper is open.
 
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   / Propane Gas Fireplace #26  
Oleozz said:
We live in a big drafty stone house and I used unvented gas heaters for years. They put out a great heat but the cost of propane is not cheap, I am now thinking about putting in a wood stove again for a backup heat source. We started with total electric, then wood and propane, now rice coal, would love to have a geothermal heat pump to replace the coal.

Talk to Techman . As they say round here . ''He's got DA hook up.'' I think he put one in a couple yrs ago.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #27  
"If there were still 70% F.A.F.'s out there the builders would put them in."

Actually the laws/codes/rules require a minimum of 80% and you can bet the typical home uses these 80% units. Sure, the 95%+ units are available but they cost much more and like so many efficiency improvements the added expense is not appreciated by most folks.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #28  
Yes, the law states gas equip. must be atleast 80 ,but, What I was trying to say is, if the law was still 70 that the builders would use 70. Just like the new 13 seer on a/c units .If you could legaly still install 10 seer a/c 'c the builders would install 10. There are still alot of older homes down here that still use space heaters as only source of heat.What's scary is,There are still alot of people that are using space heaters from the 30's,40's,50's, etc, that have no type of pilot safety at all.:eek: New gas code(international ) states that space heaters can no longer be used as only source of heat.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #29  
Yes, I agree, if the law allowed 70% there would be 70s being installed in the majority of new construction. I guess that's why we have these codes, to protect the uninformed buyer. It's too bad really.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #30  
Unvented propane or natural gas heaters up to and under 40,000 BTU's can be sold but are code violations in western NY if they are used as the primary source of heat. They all have have oxygen Depletion sensors but how does the common contracor test them? Definitely a liability to light them and along with the condensation no thanks. I'd rather pay a little more on usage rates and live longer. What are your thoughts?
 
 
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