Propane Gas Fireplace

   / Propane Gas Fireplace #41  
kenmac said:
These appliances aren't really all that dangerous or they would be outlawed all together

They are outlawed in Canada. I don't know if they are permitted in Europe either. The manufacturering lobby in the US has been able to push them effectively but without the sorts of longer term use studies that one would hope would be available. They were approved based on smaller versions (15000 BTU) I believe that were studied but the larger versions have not been subjected to such studies. I don't think they are approved as primary heating devices anyway which is what the poster is doing. Again, the issue is not so much what happens with a professionally set up and maintained set of unvented logs today but rather that people tend to neglect maintenance. It is when the flame burns yellow that there is incomplete combustion and that is when the various noxious compounds start to appear. Do you inspect all the sets you install annually?
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #42  
Thanks Kenmac. Yes I was able to monitor co levels and thought the monitor had malfunctioned. After recalibrating and monitoring for @3 weeks and every 2 to 3 weeks since,it has made me trust the ventless logs.The propane company I use has been in business for @80 years and serving the area since propane was available, they are up to date and are good people who have everything to lose by bad advice and poor service.No way would they allow me or any one to be harmed.As a main heat source I mean the gas is the only heat I use unless the temperature drops enough for heatpump/electric strip heat is needed,so far the gas logs fans have kept house warmer throughout better than the dutchwest wood stove, back rooms are no where as cool.As far as install, all directions and professional advice was followed.As a kid all any one in this part of the world had for heat was wood stove fireplaces and unvented gas heaters,mostly gas and electric now a days.So do what ever makes you feel good,thanks for looking out for me.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #43  
Hey Kenmac, E-mail me if you don't mind.Thanks
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #44  
Do you inspect all the sets you install annually?

No I don't, unless I'am call by a customer to do so. Most people don't even have their gas furnaces inspected annually. There is a small amount of c.o. that is allowed approved by the A.G.A. & other governing agencies. These appliances are covered in the national fuel gas code as well as the international gas code. As strict as these folkes are on gas appliance installation ,if they were close to being as dangerous as some folkes seem to think they are , they wouldn't be legal in any state.Just within the last couple yrs, it wasn't legal to install one of these heaters in a bedroom or bathroom . Now you are allowed to install a 6000 btu in bathrooms & 10000 btu in bedrooms provided they are wall mounted. Believe me, if these O.D.S. pilots aren't just right they won't operate There's probably alot of things that we do here that aren't legal in canada.I guess it amounts to each his or her own preference. These units are safe
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #45  
Kenmac,

We don't disagree about the safety of these devices for occasional attended use as with the use of unvented logs in a fireplace for a few hours at a time. My concerns relate to the use of unvented gas heaters as primary heat sources.

In the case of our TBN colleague greendeere, he is in fact using it as a primary heat source. In fact his heat pump is the back up system and rarely comes on. That means his ventless system is potentially running most of the day (I do appreciate we are talking about Georgia but this time of year I assume y'all run heat full time as we Yankees do). That was not what these devices were designed for and frankly they have never been subjected to the sorts of longer term real world scientific testing to insure that they are safe in such circumstances. Most of the testing done to certify these vent free devices look at one hour of use or sometimes up to 8 hours but there really are no independent studies looking at one heating season for example.

You point out that most people don't have their gas furnaces inspected annually. You are correct, but any noxious compounds that occur due to malfunction of those units literally goes out the vent/chimney. In the case of ventless products those same compounds go into your house.
Additionally, from "ventfree.org" the industry lobby group's own website:
  1. What maintenance is needed on vent-free appliances?
    1. As with all gas appliances, vent-free appliances should be inspected for proper operation at least annually by a qualified service agency. The burners should be visually inspected and cleaned in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
Not bothering to inspect a vented appliance may result in less efficiency than desired but is unlikely to result in toxic gases being discharged into the home. That cannot be said for vent free devices.

The concern with ventless products is not that they are going going to explode and they may well not be an oxygen depletion risk with the ODSs but they certainly have the potential to add noxious undetectable (to human nose) air pollutants which could affect human health. That is why Canada and European countries have not allowed them. The USA as we all know has a political system that is quite vulnerable to special interest lobbys. The GAMA (Gas Appliance Manufacturer's Association) is an industry interest group not a professional scientific body. The GAMA doesn't recommend them as primary heat sources yet they really don't do much to discourage the devices from being used that way. As they are by far the cheapest and technically most efficient heaters on the market, it is obvious that some people will bend the rules and use them as a primary heat source. Where is the GAMA or Ventfree Gas Products Alliance marketing campaign to discourage such use? Their promotional material all carefully states these heaters are for "supplemental" heat only yet they are selling a million units a year and it is perfectly clear that many of those units are functionally primary heating sources especially for the poor in the southern parts of this country.

From the Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta (MMWR 46(51);1221-1224)

Since 1992, use of unvented combustion heaters has increased because in many states, regulations prohibiting the use of these devices have been rescinded. As of November 1997, five states prohibit the use of unvented gas-fueled or liquid-fueled heaters (Alaska, Massachusetts, and Minnesota; and Colorado and Utah at high altitude only) (M. Carson, Vent-Free Gas Products Association, personal communication, December 2, 1997). Manufacturers recommend that these devices be used for short periods of time with a nearby window open for ventilation (5; M. Carson, Vent-Free Gas Products Association, personal communication, December 2, 1997). Failure to follow these instructions could result in elevated levels of combustion by-products.

Both unvented and vented heating appliances must be properly maintained to reduce the risk for associated health hazards. Persons who use unvented combustion space heaters should follow manufacturers' recommendations and use these devices only for short periods in well-ventilated areas to prevent the accumulation of toxic gases in living spaces. Other prevention strategies include conducting media campaigns detailing the potential hazards of unvented combustion space heaters during the colder months and encouraging the proper use of CO detectors in homes.

Finally, for someone with a "tight" house, as greendeere describes, the ventfree.org people recommend that additional steps be taken to provide fresh air. From their website: In tightly constructed homes, additional provisions for combustion and ventilation air must be provided using one of the methods defined in the National Fuel Gas Code, ANSI Z 223.1/NFPA 54 For example opening a window which certainly decreases overall heating efficiency calculations though the industry lobby group never bothers to point that out.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #46  
Yes we do ( or I do ) agree that these units unvented logs or space heaters shouldn't be used as a primary heat source as I do follow gas code in my line of work & that is what the code states .All unwanted combustion products don't always go out the flue (on vented appliances) if you fail to have regular maintance performed on these vented appliances. I went on a gas furnace just yesterday that is/ was vented ,but because of lack of maintance on the part of the home owner , the F.A.F. was not burning properly ( burning real yellow & only 1/2 burning )producing C.O. & aldehyde ( if my spelling is correct) C.O. is always present when the odor of aldehyde is present. If these units burn for a period of time with a yellow flame it will soot up the combustion chamber & cause all the combustion products (C.O.) to spill out into the area where the F.A.F. is located ( not up the vent ).If the F.A.F. is located indoors then all these products spill out in the house. This unit I tested was producing in access of 1000 PPM of C.O. !! :eek: in the living space (or in the house)
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #47  
The last 2 nights have been in the upper 20's,the days in the 40 to 50's.The thermostat on gas logs set @71 degrees and run 4 to 5 minutes each 25 to 30 minute cycles at night same amount of time during the day time hours only cycling every 50 to 60 minutes.This is our coldest time of winter each year.While this may be considered my primary source of heat the heat pump thermostat is set at 68 degrees and has not run any that me or my wife have known of,one or the other is home every day and night.The wood stove never kept a regulated temperature with wood burning out,being replaced and time needed for it to reheat the house.Even with proper care in keeping the flue clean as recommended using a creosote remover in the fire box,the chimney fires are a lot more hazardous to me than any of the run times I have with my gas logs.Even with coming in for outside fresh air neither of us detect any smells.We have as pets and raise parrots in our home and have never had any problems of any kind. I certainly would not do this if I didn't believe it to be safe.Neither myself or wife or any pets( birds or dogs )have had any kind of respiratory problems.We keep dozens of plants indoors during the winter and have not noticed any problem.Just the way it is for us,if it does not work for you,okay.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #48  
Not to clear on what you you think you know about the south, being from RI. Islandtractor but just for the record I happen to be in the upper level of income for my area and opinions(well they are like,well, certainly since you seem to know what we southerner do, you know the rest of the story.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #49  
Greenedeere,

I do know something about the South as my mother was raised there and I've spent a fair amount of time in Hotlanta (which I appreciate is not considered exactly a Southern town:D ). However I'd like to make clear that my comment regarding the use of ventless heaters in the South was a direct quote from the Centers for Disease Control epidemiologic study of ventless heater use. It just happens that these devices are most popular in the Southern states and are disproportionally (not exclusively by any means) used by poorer and black families. Those are the data. Look it up on the CDC website (MMWR 46(51);1221-1224)

My concern is that while anyone might choose to make a decision to use a ventless heating unit for whatever reasons they have, that some people are choosing them for economic reasons and potentially compromising health.

The example KenMac gave of a vented furnace that was poorly maintained and producing large amounts of dangerous gas in the house is a great example of why we should not be looking at best case examples (i.e. ventless logs under laboratory conditions or in short term tests) but rather considering the consequences of poorly maintained equipment. As KenMac pointed out in his earlier posts, he does not get called back by his customers to do preventive maintenance as recommended by the manufacturer. Inevitably some of these ventless units will be poorly maintained, fail to burn cleanly, and start discharging noxious gases into the home. It may not happen today but it is entirely predictable.

In your case you are both using a ventless device as a primary heating device and you have what seems to be a well constructed tight house which actually makes the risk higher. The fact that you are getting away with using your ventless heater as a primary heating source against both manufacturer and government recommendations is exactly the equivalent of using a tractor without a ROPS or seatbelt. Things will be just fine until they are not. No warning, no chance to correct it once the tractor starts to roll or the heater starts pumping out harmful gas. I hope you at least have a CO alarm hardwired near your bedroom.
 
   / Propane Gas Fireplace #50  
Read or reread post 42.Islandtractor.
 

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