Proper voltage on crank wire of New Holland 5610S solenoid

[hayydogg]

2000 model year 5610S was kind of acting a bit weird with an intermittent cranking problem and then suddenly will not engage the starter. All panel lights come on, the pre-heater system engages, but the last switch position does nothing. After much fighting with guards I was able to bypass the solenoid and the starter will engagenif shorted to the battery. Strongly suspect the solenoid has gone bad, but wondered what the voltage is needed to engage it. The white and red "crank wire" shows about 1.5V or so relative to the starter ground when the key switch is engaged to the start position. Anybody know if that is what should be on the white with red stripe "crank" wire? If so the switch is working and I will order the solenoid.

 

[jaxs]

Sound's like a high resistance connection between battery and solenoid. When you say "the starter will engagenif shorted to the battery",I take that to mean shorting 12 volts from +battery post to same terminal as white/red wire connect's to. If you mean battery to large bolt on starter,try battery to white/red terminal. If that engage's starter,solinoid is good. Test white/red connections to locate the voltage drop. There are contacts inside switch, "Last switch position"should be suspect #1. Hope that make's sense.

 

[Agvg]

Bad safety switch?

 

[chim]

A similar problem on my Ford 1210 was caused by a broken wire near the starter. It was broken inside the insulation, so it wasn't all that obvious. I'd start with a voltmeter at one end and follow the wire to the other. If there's not 10 volts or better at the small terminal on the starter (while attempting to crank), follow the wire back till you get 10 or more volts.

Or start at the ignition switch. If you have voltage into the switch, but don't have it coming out of the switch - replace the switch.

 

[hayydogg]

I shorted + battery to the bolt on the starter and that did start to turn over. The terminal for the wire coming from the switch (the white with red stripe) is a small push on connector with a very small wire. Not sure if it is designed to take all the current the battery could give it, but thanks for the idea, I might try a more controlled 12V from another source maybe. Your reply does make sense, I forgot to mention I just replaced the switch to try an eliminate that as the issue. A good idea to try to give that contact closer to 12V and see if that does it.

 

[hayydogg]

I shorted the safety interlock coming from the trans to close that circuit. I guess I was assuming it would fail open, so I thought closing it manually might eliminate that. As far as I know the switch in the transmission that prevents starting in gear is the only one, but it remains a possible option.

 

[hayydogg]

Thanks, I figured it maybe should be higher than about 1.5. Got a drop in there someplace. I may need to try a different replacement switch and based on the other replies below need to check the connections between the switch and the solenoid. Thanks to all for the replies.

 

[hayydogg]

Thanks, that is an excellent plan to try and track this down

 

[ETpilot]

Lots of good info here. Here is what I would do. Get a test starter switch at a parts house. It comes in handy. Disconnect W/R wire at solenoid. Connect starter switch from battery positive to the connection on the solenoid. Keep fuel off. Press starter switch. If engine cranks then starter and solenoid are good.

Connect a volt meter between W/R wire to a good ground. Turn ignition switch to start. You should read battery voltage or near battery voltage if circuit is good.

Wiring is as follows according to my manual. From ignition switch W/Y wire goes to the safety switch. From the safety switch W/R wire goes to the solenoid.

My guess is the safety switch is out of adjustment causing a no start condition. This is a common problem. At least on my 4610 it was a problem. If IIRC the safety switch is adjustable.

From step two above, work your way back to the safety switch and then the ignition switch. You are looking for battery voltage with the ignition switch in the start position.

 

[John_Mc]

Are you sure your battery is in good shape? I just replaced a battery on an antique UTV. It would measure about 12.6 volts (freshly charged), but when I turned the key I might hear a click, or I might hear nothing. I was thinking I had a wiring problem, sinc eI was "sure" the battery was only a little over a year old. Just to be sure before I dug into cleaning all the connections, I checked: the voltage while attempting to crank was dropping down to around 3 volts. Turns out that the battery was about 3 years old - and there is a reason that those little lawn tractor-sized batteries only have a 1 year warranty. I'm guessing it had a bad cell. Replaced the battery and it's working fine.

 

[ETpilot]

Good point on battery condition. I always start with a battery load test. If you don't have a battery load tester any auto shop will test for free.

 

[John_Mc]

Good point on battery condition. I always start with a battery load test. If you don't have a battery load tester any auto shop will test for free.

Load test is a great way to go, and the testers are not all that expensive. Testing battery voltage while cranking is another way of load testing, it's just not a calibrated method. If it were not so obvious that my battery was shot from the test-while-cranking, I would have dug out my load tester next.

 

[Texasmark]

Load test is a great way to go, and the testers are not all that expensive. Testing battery voltage while cranking is another way of load testing, it's just not a calibrated method. If it were not so obvious that my battery was shot from the test-while-cranking, I would have dug out my load tester next.

Got mine from HF for about $50....cheap enough to go for it. I got mine when I started having problems with batteries that did funny things when supposedly charging and then getting next to nothing out of what appeared to be a fully charged battery. The load tester has well paid for itself.

On finding bad junctions, if you stay on the start button long enough the bad spot will heat up and show you where it is. 1v drop at 200 amps, that many engines require for starting is 200 watts.....think 200w light bulb heat for a reference. Don't have to tell you how easy it would be to feel your wiring for a heat source like that. Ouch!

 

[hayydogg]

So the current status is that with a three foot long wire and spade connectors I was able to go directly from the switch's crank terminal to the solenoid. Starts just fine, (so turns out the switch is ok) but of course I have bypassed all the safety stuff by doing so. Tried to trace the circuit from the switch to the solenoid, but that is going to require an evening in the shop as it goes all over the place. Either the broken wire/ bad connection issue is what it is, or could be something with a safety switch in that circuit. I must admit, I would have no idea about adjusting a safety switch (assuming mine has that type hiding in the rats nest of wiring harness in there). The idea of a switch with adjustable contacts or some kind of sensitivity setting would never have occurred to me in a million years, so thanks for the heads up. Seeing as dad always used really really old equipment I feel pretty confident that I can avoid trying to crank it without depressing the clutch and making sure both selectors are out of gear for the next few weeks. If I showed up in front of him because of getting hurt for that reason, then I would have eternity to hear about it. Will get it fixed in case somebody else ever tries to use it though. Thanks for the helpful replies, this is the newest tractor I have ever owned by about 25 years, and they are certainly built a bit different in terms of electrical and fuel flow controls. Stuff from the 70's tends to have like 8 wires, one filter, and a mechanical fuel shut off on the pump.

 

[jaxs]

Good to know you found a way to use the tractor while you continue looking for the culprit. In light of you being comfortable without safty shutoffs in place,here's a tip to eliminate having to hold key in start postion while testing safty devices and looking for broken wire/poor connection. Make sure tractor is not in gear and keep hands clear of parts the move when starter engages. You will need a sack of feed on seat,clutch pedal bungeed down and anything else that operator ordinarlly does while starting tractor. Move the jump wire from solenoid to 12 volts +. The red-white wire now thinks key is in start position and leave's both hands free. You might first just shake wires,un-plug and replug connector to see if starter engages. You can use a light,a jumper wire with probe on each end or a volt meter to locate. We will talk about test light but procedure is exactly the same for meter and light. Only difference is that when bad connection is found,light will glow whereas meter read's volts and jump wire will engage starter. Touch either probe of light to a safty device or connector nd other probe to opposite terminal. When light glow's,there's a break in current flow between probes.

 

[ETpilot]

A quick test to see if you have a wiring issue is a continuity test. Find the W/Y wire at the switch. Connect your tester there. Find the end of the W/R wire at the solenoid. Connect the other lead on the tester there. Transmission in neutral. You should have continuity. No continuity means a fault in the circuit. DO NOT POWER UP THE STARTER SWITCH. If the continuity test fails then move to the safety switch. Do the test there. W/Y to W/Y. The continuity test is the safe way to go as no power is required other than the tester power. If you have a seat switch then weight is needed there. That may require testing the seat switch too.

My tractor is older than yours. Not sure of all the switches in the starting circuit for your tractor. Mine only has the transmission safety switch located under the cover where the Shift and Lo-High handles exit.

I'll see if I can look up the safety switch adjustment. I gave up on mine long ago and finally bypassed it.

 

[ETpilot]

Ok I found my manual. I don't really like there manuals. Using them is like working your way thru a maze.

Anyway 2 pictures regarding the transmission safety switch. One picture shows the cover with the switch wires extending from the cover. You can disconnect those wires from the wires leading into the tractor. Connect a continuity tester between those 2 wires. With transmission in neutral you should have continuity. If no continuity then switch is bad or not aligned properly. If you have continuity the problem is not the switch and you have to look elsewhere.

Page two give minimal instruction on switch installation and adjustment. You really have to look inside to see what is going on.

All this is if your tractor is like mine. The manuals I have cover many different tractor models. That is why the manuals are somewhat confusing and A mazing. Lol.

Hope this helps.

 

[ETpilot]

I posted a schematic for a handy dandy voltage/continuity tester, IMO. It works with a horn. So no meter to look at. No light to look at. Great when working alone. I once did landing gear troubleshooting on an airplane while working alone. The tester was in the rear of the airplane while I tested in the nose gear area. Works great. Make one and give it a try.

Voltage/Continuity Tester

Post 538

When testing we usually want to know do we have continuity, do we have voltage. Using a meter may come later.