Prosecute the parents?

[cowboydoc]

I would have to say Glenn that if it was a true accident and I had placed my trust in these people I would have no right to say anything else. Now with that said I also realize that it is entirely impossible to even remotely say what I would do in the siutation. I don't think anyone is arguing with Patrick that this was not the smartest thing to do. But honestly is it any different than the father that throws their kid up in the air and catches them? Well that happened here a few months ago where a guy threw his kid up in the air, dropped him, and he broke his neck and died instantly. I think the reason so many of us are not quick to judge and condemn this guy is because I think those of us that have kids have all had something very similiar to this happen. If this guy is convicted of this then you could make a case against just about every parent in the world whose kid dies an accidental death. It was a dumb stupid accident that could have happened to any one of us who has kids. Another example from my own list of stupid kid accidents. When I was building my house I was finishing up the trim. The girls were running around the house while I was working. They were in another room at the time. Well the phone rang and I went to get it. All of a sudden I heard the nail gun go off and my littlest one screaming. I went in there to see here wiggling a nail around in her hand. Now I got the nail pulled out and fixed up her hand and all was fine. But what if she had shot herself or her sister in the head and killed on of them? Surely this would qualify as child endangerment for leaving the nail gun out as would riding in the skidsteer. Just like I did not dream in a million years that a two year old could fire a nail gun I'm sure this guy didn't dream that his 3 year old would fall out of the skidsteer. It's sad, tragic, and a terrible accident but again where is the crime that the father did IF the little boy had not died!!! IF the boy had just fallen out and they had taken him to the hospital say for a broken arm nothing at all would have been made of this. There wouldn't have been a crime. Now if we feel as a society that machinery is dangerous for children and they should not be allowed on it then make a law saying that children cannot ride or operate machinery. Until then it is very scary to me that even if you don't commit a crime per se it's just up to whoever to interpret the statute in any way that they see fit.

 

[Joe_W]

I've watched this thread for a few days, and I would like to add my two cents if you would indulge me. Suppose the father was taking his 5 year old son and his 3 year old neighbor boy for a ride, and the neighbor boy fell out and was killed by the father driving the loader. Would you all have the same opinion? Should he be held accountable since it was not his own child that he killed? I suspect the DA would prosecute the case to the full extent of the law, and the local public would demand it. Now, is the life of his son any less important than that of anyone else's?
I concur that the father was guilty of incredible stupidity, and will regret his actions for the rest of his life. But from a legal standpoint he did needlessly endanger a childs life. My Kubota has a warning sticker on it that says never to let anyone ride in the bucket of the loader. If that sticker was not on the loader I would still have enough sense not to let anyone in the bucket. When I was a kid, there were very few warning stickers, and the every day hazards were much greater. But I survived because my parents taught me common sense. It seems that today's younger generation lacks common sense among other things. And maybe it's my generation that failed to teach them properly. But the bottom line is that you are responsible for your actions, Period. Or at least you used to be.
There I've gone on long enough.
Joe W.

 

[patrickg]

To: Joe_W, Glenmac, and the others who have remained calm in the face of overheated, inflamatory, and excessive rhetoric on the part of myself and some of the respondents. I stirred the pot too hard and am responsible for starting the "riot" of tis-taiint-tis-taint. It got out of hand, mostly my fault, with a little help. The aspects that you both and others have, much more calmly than I, brought up are the kinds of things that deserve consideration. I inflamed emotion and got many dads eager to vindicate themselves for anything they ever did remotely dangerous by shouting me down. Once past a certain point of civil discourse, it didn't show any of us in a good light. I'll try harder to be a better netizen. I will undoubtedly push other issues to the limit, where the limit will hopefully fall short of igniting a firestorm.

One method of eliciting opinion beyond surface glibness is to stir the emotion of the respondent sufficiently to achieve a deeper truer revelation of their beliefs. Ask John Doe how he is and you'll get a cliche, something like, "Fine, and you?" John might have a headache, be near bankruptcy, and his wife and girl friend are both pregnant but likely he'll say, "Fine" unless you get past his "social reserve". Well I got a little too far past some of our social reserves, mine included.

I knew I went too far when instead ofhaving my logic questioned or having counter arguments presented, I got attacks on my style or look how overboard I went with inflamatory comments. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! I may have made a very bad spokesperson for the "legal consequences required" view but as easy target as I was for an ad hominem, the effort could have been more profitably spent on the "issue" rather than the man.

I'm sure no one's position radically changed as a result of this "discussion". Those who thought no law was broken or felt better thinking no law was broken or thought that the dad was punished enough by his loss, remain essentially in the same position irrespective of the actions of the DA in charging the man or anything any of the rest of us may have said. Similarly, those who may have thought it was societies duty to bring charges, at least "pro forma" albeit with lenient sentencing, remain of that view. Further, it is likely that those of either pursuasion think those of the other to be at least slightly mentally aberant or lacking in "full" understanding.

We don't really need to agree. I aspire to being more civil. Here comes that quote again...


"Can't we all just get along?", R. King

Patrick

 

[cowboydoc]

Patrick,
You definitely got my attention with the post and I will think more when my kids are around machinery. It's difficult from the limited amount of info. on the subject, "kids were riding in the loader of a skidsteer" to determine whether the actions were negligent. Certainly a horse is more dangerous than a skidsteer. My kids ride horses all the time. It just starts scaring me when we start prosecuting for accidents when there was no criminal intent or when it would not have been a punishable offense if there hadn't been an accident. Yes you did accomplish alot with myself and I believe other dads on being careful and thinking more with our kids. It's just hard to know how easy it is to do stupid things when you don't have kids of your own. You don't try and be stupid but sometimes it just happens that way.

 

[bgott]

I've watched this thread with interest. I believe the powers that be seem to derive great delight in prosecuting people these days. It seems that you can get prosecuted for picking your nose with the wrong finger. I don't believe prosecuting this guy is going to accomplish anything. He has learned his lesson. I also don't believe prosecuting him is going to change the behavior of anyone who didn't get a reality check just from reading the story. The powers that be have to prosecute him. If they don't, they'll play hell prosecuting the next unlicensed welfare queen that dumps one of her nine unseatbelted, uncarseated illegitimate kids out of her unregistered and uninsured junker after jumping a curb while digging on her floorboard for the crackpipe she dropped while driving down a state highway.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by bgott on 09/08/01 12:36 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[patrickg]

Thanks, Richard. If one kid is saved inury as a result of the "Chicken Little" portion of my performance then the grief was worth it. Somehow many people seem compelled to downplay anything a childless person says like only parents have brains or care. I care a lot. I like kids and have been around a lot of them. I have been "Uncle Pat" to bunches of little people who were not related. My best friend (short trigger finger) was one of 10 kids and he is only onel with no kids but he and I are often waist deep in his relations. Of course my cavalier attitude is expressed in my flip comment, I like other peoples kids cause they are lots of fun and when they aren't I give them back. Of course this isn't strictly true. Kids are quick and of course it is impossible to monitor them all the time or protect them 100%, isn't practical to try and a few misadventures are a good learning experience. A few years back shaking a baby was not even a reason to raise an eybrow for many parents. Now it is known to be an extremely bad thing and should never be done. So what I did or anyone else did, and survived, shouldn't be a model of what should be done. When I look back at all the things my very loving and concerned parents consented to let me do, it is a wonder that I'm still here at least with all my extremeties and sensory organs intact. (I have all my fingers AND a lot of pre-Estes Engineering home built from scratch model rocket experience.)

Horses are dangerous and could likely result in death or injury. I might suggest a helmet like in equestrian events but I never wore one, just lucky I guess, my sister got a concussion and made a hole in a section line in Mississippi with her head, French reins, mediocre rider.

People facetiously ask, I did such and such with my kid should I be jailed? Do whatever is reasonable (emphasis on REASON as in thinking) I think joy riding a kid on a highway in a loader bucket is unreasonable. They bounce a lot and if a car were to come along and you had to attempt an evasive manuever, it could easily throw the kid out. THINK AHEAD! I can't agree the skid steer is less dangerous that a horse but then how many parents turn a 3 yr old lose on a horse? That too would be irresponsible. Horses bolt, sometimes for no apparent reason other than they can. Kids aren't easy and don't come with instructions. Reducing the probabilities to an acceptable risk level is reasonable. Activities that are inherently dangerous, prohibited by manufacturer's instruction or sticker, commom sense or law are not good things to do wilth kids even if it might be fun.

Patrick (gotta go get some off road diesel to keep my dangerous tractor going)

 

[Bird]

<font color=blue>many people seem compelled to downplay anything a childless person says like only parents have brains</font color=blue>

On the contrary, I think you're smarter to not have kids; the world's getting over-populated./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

At any rate, it's been an interesting discussion and a good reminder to be more careful.

Bird

 

[patrickg]

Yeah, Brag (bgott, never quite sure about the netiquette) You sure hit on most of the main points. Course I think it only seems like the "State" (AKA powers that be) delights in prosecuting nose pickers. More likely there is always someone with an angle, running for office, getting tough on crime, public opinion (Barabas or Jesus?), threat of lawsuit, whatever that mucks up law and related (but frequently not the same thing) justice.

Prosecuting the father will likely not make him one iota more careful regarding his remaining 5 yr old son than the recent events would have done on their own. Then there is another facet to this as you mentioned, setting an example (and I loved your for instance but it is too darned close to reality to be as funny as I wish it could be). Ever consider writing comedy, you might do pretty good? There are standup comedians making good money with far less funny material.

I don't know how many fathers out there read the "Reader's Digest" but a recent issue dealt with the question of how do you raise a good kid. They talked about what factors strongly corelated with success, pretty interesting stuff.

Good post. Later dude,

Patrick

 

[RobertN]

I agree too. This was not an accident. This guy made a mental decision to put the kids up there. There is absolutely no excuse for this tragedy.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Prosecute the parents?-Again!

<font color=blue>… Probably the most universal implement that came with dad's tractor was the front end loader. The uses for this unit were endless…. The bucket was great for carrying tools around the property, trash to the street, or taking grandkids for a ride to the mailbox…</font color=blue>

I just thought of Patrickg when I read this… /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Tractor Implement Article