Prosecute the parents?

   / Prosecute the parents? #31  
/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gifPatrick, in your first post, you said <font color=blue>I don't have kids</font color=blue>. I concluded many years ago that the only people who really know how to raise kids are the folks who don't have any./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Of course, I never cease to be amazed at the dumb things people do, including myself. I guess you're the only guy I know of who's never done one./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I couldn't count the number of drivers I stopped when I was a young patrolman, before the days of mandatory seat belt and restraint laws, when I'd see a mother or father driving along with a small child or baby in their lap. I'd stop them and tell them, very politely, how the child would provide good padding between them and the steering wheel in an accident, but wouldn't do the kid much good. And of course, if they wanted to tell me it was none of my business, that was the end of it; nothing I could do.

Bird
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #32  
Patrick, reread what you said. You insinuated very strongly that no jail time was not adequate. And on more than one ocassion. However, this bickering and the heated tempers are taking away from the real story/ tragedy. I suggest that the bickering stop and we focus on safety in the future, not on how to punish the past. After all, this is a tractor site, not LA Law.

Just my humble opinion.

Keep the greasy side down.
Mike
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #33  
I have read this tread several times and find that I agree with both sides of the discussion, to a point. Those of you who are more articulate than I can carry on and hopefully solve the issue of what should or should not be done in this case. I do feel that this group as a whole are responsible operators of the varies equipment we work with and I think the value of the discussion is that we learn from others mistakes.

I don't know if anyone else has done it, but I have driven my tractor with someone in the loader bucket. I have ridden in the loader bucket, also. There will be no effort on my part to justify that, it is not the right thing to do. Will I ever do it again, can't say. What I can say is that I will think of this case when the situation comes up again.

I believe that is the DA's intentions by charging the father with a crime and I also think that was Patrick's intention when he started the thread.

If you believe all things happen for a reason, lets hope that part of the reason for this tragedy is that several thousand other tractor owners, on this forum, will remember this thread if they are tempted to let someone ride in the loader bucket.

Sincerely,

MarkV
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #34  
Patrick...

You are relentless.... /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

When you dig your heels in... you really dig them in...

I want you in the foxhole next to me... never never never ever give up... that's you! Really, I truly salute you for it.

It's Patrick against the world /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif... at least I get to increase my vocabulary every time I read one of your posts...

I must say Patrick... you are a most versatile guy... Go Man Go... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I've said it before... if you can channel all the energy you have, with little of our help[TBN members], we can get your Mom's home done lickety-split, take care of your neighbor from Haiti, and see your new box blade in action... taking pictures with our digital camera's to memorialize all the events...

Again, I tip my hat to you Patrick... even though I don't agree with you on this occasion... /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

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   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#35  
Dan, Dan, Dan, Surely you can see the inapplicability of your first example. Yes that was an accident brougt on by lack of expoerience and the emotional state generated by the first contact with the kid and the going the wrong way. You would be amazed how many people push the wrong pedal in the car. When they don't get the desired outcome they push it harder. This puts a lot of people into the front of a mall shop. Funny thing no matter how hard you press the accelerator it doesn't become the brake. These are accidents. In my personal oppinion they are cause to test the person strenuously for fitness to operate a motor vehicle on the public roads.

Ok, In your example the driver did not set out to do anything intentionally wrong, dangerous, or stupid. In the case of the idiot with the kid in the loader bucket joy riding on the state highway, that is different. The kid did not get into the bucket by accident. The father was not UNAWARE of his being in the bucket. If (and this is a giant IF) if the kid got into the bucket and hid and his father did not see him nor had a history of the kid hiding in the bucket then I would be a lot more sympathetic with the cause of not charging him under the law. That however was very clearly NOT the case.

Sorry but your example is just not applicable. It is a real tear jerker but has nothing to do wilth the case at hand.

As far as your "instant reaction" to this accident(?) doesn't bear on the situation either. Don't confuse our loose use of the word accident with chance or probability. If while playing Russian roulette you blow your brains out, was it an accident? It wasn't a "sure thing" the hammer just accidently happened to come down on a loaded cylinder. Don't you agree that playing Russian roulette is patently dangerous and stupid and that if the guy had played Russian roulette with the kid's head and a gun and blown his brains out that he would have had the DA after him for more than community service and safety training?

Taking the kid for a joy ride in a skid steer loader bucket on the state highway, irrespective of any fun intentions, was just as dumb as playing Russian roulette with the kid would have been. What about child restraints for heaven's sake. If the child were killed in an auto accident while not in a restraint or seat belted that would be a clear violation of law and might result in criminal proceedings. So why does everyone want to condone a joy ride in a skid steer loader bucket on a state highway? The father had to afirmatively commit several blunders to cause this, Why are we afraid to call a spade a spade? I really think emotion is clouding judgement and no one wants to see themselves in a bad light for doing things with children that are as nearly stupid but haven't had their luck run out yet so they are wont to whistle in the dark!

I give, why wasn't grandmaw charged? I'm not imortal, just superhuman, but not allways omnicient. (or a very good speller) Surrely by now you must have noticed that laws are not always enforced uniformly.

Dan, I'm sorry that you and or your wife have difficulty taking the time to be "baby safe". It isn't easy, and the fact that we make it at all as a society growing our replacements, is amazing. I hope nothing bad happens but would encourage yo to asses risk from a couple directions. Severity of outcome and liklihood of occurence. Something bad that is likely to happen but the worst outcome isn't too severe can be priortized below something less likely to happen but results in an unacceptable outcome (death, dismemberment, maiming).

My best friend has only two thirds to three fourths of a trigger finger on his right hand (the Marines still drafted him for Viet Nam but I counselled him on how to get out of it). Seems his mom only turned her back for a couple seconds. He was at the just walking good age when he stuck his finger in the output side of the meat grinder in between the blades and his sister, a year older, turned the crank, just like mommy did. His mom jfigures she had her back turned for maybe 2 seconds to pick up something on the counter behind her. Do I think she should have been jailed, no! If she gave it to them to play with (see the joyride analogy forming) then I think the state should have considered charging her or deciding if she were a fit mother.

Yes, yes, people do stupid things all the time. Some of them are criminal and come of them aren't. Just because two things are stupid doesn't make them equal. There are degrees of disregard for safety (sometimes called stupidity, an overworked term) Society has enacted laws to protect itself from excessive and flagrant acts of disregard for safety of its members. The child in the loader bucket was a deserving member of society not a pet, not the parents property to do with as they please, not a critically evaluating member of society. Children are due, deserve, and should get special treatment by society. That is how child protective services steps in to protect a child's welfare when parents don't. Raising a child is difficult. they are accidents waiting to happen. They shouldn't be placed in jeopardy for any instant gratification motivation or layziness of yours or theirs.

I agree with you emphatically. You can't legislate intelligence or motivation. All we can do is provide legal recourse to try to mold members of society toward the behaviors society chooses to preserve and condone and provide degrees of punishment (state imposed negative outcomes) for behaviors that society wants to curtail. Surely no one on TBN thinks any law has ever stopped any crime absolutely. Laws and their administration, however flawed, are one of the civilizing influences we have to hold us back from the brink of chaos. If we let situationalistic emotions prevent their application then as a group we are backing off from civilization. There are ameliorating circumstances considered in many court room situations, most judges are not machines or machine like. Even prosecutors (not facing re-election soon) are human beings.

Ive been baraged with emotional commentary and innundated with inapplicable examples but no one has given a rational legal argument to sustain the "rightness" of taking a virtually defensless baby for a joyride in a skid steer bucket on a state highway. Until or unless that can be done then isn't a consequence of his criminal actions to be tried for them by law?

Better to light a single candle than to forever curse the darkness.

Patrick
 
   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#36  
Ok, Grumpy. I take back the word "PARADE". His community service coulld still be safety lectures to parents.

Patrick
 
   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#37  
Lets not confuse my oppinion of what should happen to the guy with my oppinion that the law should be followed. I might suggest great punishment but abide by the reasoned decision of the human prosecutor, judge, and any jury. that is why if I ran over your kid you wouldn't get to decide my punishment if any, the law would.

Best I can do via this medium. If we ever convened a large physical get together I bet we would have fewer disagreements and less unresolved differences.

Patrick
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #38  
(So why does everyone want to condone a joy ride in a skid steer loader bucket on a state highway? )

Patrick, where did anyone here condone this. Just one instance? No one did, except in your mind. You against the world? Only in your mind. Step back for a bit, take a deep breath, then let this go. Your statement is an insult to all who have posted on this thread.

I think you like to hear yourself talk, and this is why you have adopted this subject. In doing so, you have done an injustice to the tragedy. And comparing this to Russian roulette, geeze, that was a low blow.

Keep the greasy side down.
Mike<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mike_Dumond on 09/07/01 12:11 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
   / Prosecute the parents? #39  
Patrick,
What law did he break is what I'm failing to see? If he had been stopped by a police officer could he have been given a ticket for what he did? I don't think so. So how then is what he did criminal? Unfortunate, yes; something to learn from, definitely; but I fail to see where the criminality of the situation is? What law did he break? I'm not arguing with you so don't get defensive. I'm just trying to see the law that was broken here. In a very similiar case here two kids were riding in the back of a pickup truck. The Dad swerved to miss a cow and rolled the truck killing the two kids. Because there was no law against riding in the back of a pickup truck there were no charges that could be brought against him. Since then that county has made a law that you can't ride in the back of pickup trucks.

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   / Prosecute the parents?
  • Thread Starter
#40  
Please Bird, Cut me some slack. I don't have time to launch into a paragraph of self deprecating humor and several annecdotes about my screwups to prove I'm only human and fully aware of the fact. The only people who do nothing wrong are the people who do nothing.

My 10 yrs in dealing with the boating public from the Coast Guard side of things was, at times, as frustrating, I'm sure. as your young patrolman days with regard to being rebuffed when making clearly needed safety suggestion to protect folks and their kids from clearly unsafe personal practices. "The gas tank is only leaking a litle bit", "we'll get this extinguisher looked at real soon now", and on and on.

I make no claim to being perfect, so I think your comment, ". I guess you're the only guy I know of who's never done one." is unwarranted, and very much in error.

I don't want to start a new thread "The most I ever screwed up was when..." but I can if you need proof that I can hold my own in that arena.

Given the laws in effect now regarding seatbelts and child restraints how do you lightly excuse anyone who places an innocent defensless child in a loader bucket on a skid steer and goes joy riding on the state highway.

Can you comment on that seriously with no reference to the guys self punishment, tears, etc., just your take on the legal ramifications, not the emotional ones? I really would like to know what you think regarding any violations of law. As a separate statement, you could comment on what you think of those laws. Are they needed. Strong enough, too strong, should they be selectively enforced?

A lot of readers here on TBN (myself definitely included) pay close attention to your comments and advice.

Patrick
 
 
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