PTO Elec. Generator

[Pilgrim]

Hi Guys,
Here in Litchfield County Connecticut we just got socked pretty hard with ice. I got a full ½ inch. Did a number on the trees and of course the power went out. Lost power on Saturday 3:00 am and got it today (Monday) at about 4:00 pm.
Seems like the utilities response time is getting worse as the years go by.
The better half is “suggesting” that life would be better if we had a generator.
Now I’m not the type of guy that just says, “OK, I’ll pick one up on the way home from work”. Not that I’m not cheep, far from it, I just don’t want another piece of equipment sitting around that’s gonna require storage and maintenance and only get used 4 to 5 days a year.
I’ve got a JD 4110 (20 hp) with a perfectly good PTO sticking out her, ah, stern.
I’m only concerned with running the heat, the refrigerator and the water pump.
My “dream” would be to run a generator off the PTO with an extension cord into the basement onto some type of “magic box”, installed by an electrician, that hooks into my panel.
Is this STUPID or should I buy a dedicated unit. I think I would still have to have an electrician come in to set me up. 110 for the frig and 220 for water.

I searched this thread for PTO generators didn’t come up with much. Sorry if this topic has already been covered.

 

[MossRoad]

It is a good idea to have it done by an electrician. Not only can you kill yourself, you could kill a lineman working on the problem down the road. The "magic box" is called a transfer switch. It disconnects the house from the main power grid, then connects the house to the generator. It keeps the two sources seperate with no chance of mixing them.

There are several schools of thought. One is to just put the important circuits (heat, water, etc...) on the generator and get a switch that will handle those loads. Another is to get a generator that is sized to run the whole house and a whole house switch. There are probably several others that I missed.

The only thing that I don't like about a PTO generator is that when there is a power outage, there is usually storm damage to clean up. If you have the generator on the tractor, you have to turn it off to use the tractor for the cleanup. Other than that, I can't think of a disadvantage.

I just have a small generator to run essentials, but will wire my next house for a whole house unit.

Good luck in your search /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[hayden]

I suspect you will find a PTO generator significantly more expensive than a portable. They tend to start in the 10KW range and go up from there.

 

[Inspector507]

I'm exploring the whole house unit that runs off Nat gas myself......the CFO won't release the bucks yet.
She will when the power is out for 2-3 days and she can't go potty......../w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Save yourself a lot of agrivation, and go with a stand alone generator, preferrably 1800 rpm.
PTO generators are a real pain unless you have an extra tractor sitting around to run it. Usually, when you need a generator because of a storm or flood or whatever, there will be plenty of other things for the tractor to be doing besides converting dinosour remains to electricity.
If you are only looking to run the heat, water and a few other things, a competant electrician can show you how to do the load transferr using 3 way switches instead of buying one of the expensive transferr panels. Of course, you can also eliminate the need for a transferr switch by installing plugs & short cords on all the necessary devices.

 

[alco141]

the pros and cons of pto generator vs stand alone unit. i have had about 5 different generators during the last 20 years, i now have both a stand alone and a pto driven unit. there is no doubt that the pto units are more expensive, as they are built like tanks. i have a 25 kw generac and it weighs 325 lbs alone. as i see it the biggeat drawback with the pto generator is not about the need for the tractor to be used tfor other things, it is the fact that your wife/kids may not be able to hook it to the tractor if you are not home.
both the better stand alone generators and the pto generators will provide stable electricity within their horsepower outputs. and you need to consider this carefully. as to how much hp you need to run your household. with the tractor you get about 1kw per 2 pto hp. so figure out your tractors ability for power from there. with the pto unit i have never seen the wild fluctuations some have eluded to. the tractor torque and the large mass of the armiture tend to smooth out any load changes. i hav tried throwing the whole load on the tractor at once, you may see some black smoke, but my NH 1520 (19pto hp) keeps the power steady. that is with two funaces, lights, well pump, refrig and freezer. so pick your poison, but the pto generator is a very viable option.

alex

 

[alco141]

one other thing, get an electrician to install your transfer switch, makes it easier for the wife/kids to get the generator connected without a screwup. much safer for all involved. i have used both types of gentran switches, both the transpanel that you add your own breakers to and the smaller 10 circuit prewired switch, they both are good devices.

alex

 

[Pilgrim]

Thanks Guys,
I'd definitely have an electrician in to get it done properly.
On my first house I was in the basement messing around with the water pressure (live220v) and completed a circuit with my crescent wrench. Big bang, took out 2 chunks of metal from the wrench and literally knocked me back on my pilgrim a$$. Lesson learned.

 

[dmccarty]

Pilgram,

When I bought my tractor one of the sizing requirements was
the ability to run a PTO generator. Since my tractor has a
bit more than 40 PTO HP the rule of them on PTO generators
says I can run a 20KW unit. I think that is enough! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

If you search TBN you will see previous discussions on PTO
generators. Somewhere, and I'm hoping its in one of our
old discussions, there was a list of how many watts various
appliances require. That would be a good starting point. But
if your tractor has 20 PTO HP then you should be good for
10KW.

The discussions where most likely in the Attachments area.

I'm still partial to a PTO generator since its one less engine
and point of failure to maintain. I don't buy into the argument
that the generator will tie up the tractor from other uses. I
don't plan on running the generator 24x7. Just a few hours
during the day to run the pump(s), coffee maker, TV/radio,
freezer, fridge, computers, etc. This is an emergency event
and the generator is to help us for a few days/weeks. I have
seen what happens on my property with ice storms and heavy
snows. There will be some cleanup but not enough to prevent
me from running the generator for a few hours and then
putting on the box blade and working the tractor. And the
other thing to consider, especially in an ice/snow event, do
YOU want to be out in that weather, especially if there is ice
built up on trees? I know I won't be out running around as
a target for widow maker.... BTDT, never again....

Hurricanes are the other weather event that will cause us to
loose power. At least with these storms they are finished fast
unlike snow/ice that can hang around for weeks. Course the
power may not be back for weeks but at least there ain't no
ice/snow.... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Since I have owned the property, it has been through one
major hurricane and two major snow/ice events. With these
storms I only lost a few trees. One of them was a 24+ inch
pine that fell across a driveway to be. It would have only
taken a few minutes with a chainsaw to clear out the wood
enough to get in/out of the property. The other trees did
not effect anything. I always have trees falling over in
storms. Just part of owning some woods. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Hurricane
Fran knocked down lots of trees but there really is not point
in working to clean them up in a hurry. They ain't going
anywhere. And with hurricanes the weather is usually hot
and humid not my prime time for working a chainsaw....

Once we get the house under construction, looks like the first
of the year, I'll size the appliances and start thinking seriously
about a generator. I might get a stand alone if our wattage
requirements can be met. But what I found when looking at
generators, is that a 10KW PTO generator is much cheaper
than a stand alone. If someone can show a site that has
10KW stand alone generators at the same price or less than
a PTO genset I would love to know about it! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

My two cents...
Dan McCarty

 

[gerard]

PTO - pros are not another engine to maintain and if you have fuel oil at your house you have a fuel supply and aren't running to the gas station all the time. Smallest I've seen put out 10KW and need a 25hp tractor to do that. That should do you whole house except for an electric hot water or electric range. Cons are already stated - hook up bit more of a pain, ties tractor to house and can't use for other things.

I bought a 8000 watt peak, 6600 continuous gas generator from northern machinery with honda motor for $1300. Wired it into the service panel and it does my whole house with no problem. (Well, lighting, sump pump, furnace etc) I don't use my electric range or electric dryer and hot water is propane so I'm all set. (old electric water heater takes 9500 watts alone so I switched over to propane).

transfer switch is the safest way to go but they cost around $300 and I don't know if you pick up your whole panel. I ran a dedicated circuit to the garage that the generator plugs into with a twistlock plug. This backfeeds the panel. Turn off the main, turn on the generator circuit. Yes I know - I expect replies telling me how unsafe this is, how I could fry a lineman etc etc. Guess I have enough confidence in my brain matter to realize I can't have the generator circuit on and the main at the same time so I don't back feed the service line. Upside is I didn't have to "pick and choose" which circuits I wanted to run which is what I would have had to do with a transfer switch. I get the whole house and just shut off the heavy draws (range, dryer, ac, etc). Ran for 10 hours the other day and never ran out of capacity.

 

[Trev]

<font color=blue>one other thing, get an electrician to install your transfer switch</font color=blue>

One thought I had was if I had this generator on a trailer, and we had an extended outtage, I could drive it over to the neighbors house to give them some power for a while to keep their pipes from freezing and warm them up a bit, then bring it back home, or to another neighbors. How much would it cost these neighbors to have the transfer switch installed so they could benefit from a plan like this?

Thanks,
Bob

 

[techman]

Gerard:

Let me throw in my 2 cents. I had the same setup as you did (except the generator/circuit is in the shed). I got worried that when I was out of town the wife would try running the generator herself and forget to kill the main. I priced transfer switches, and since I wanted to feed the whole panel I would need a separate disconnect on the incoming line and a 200 amp transfer switch. Total cost was around $ 1500 for the disconnect and a 200amp xfer.

I ended up making my own "transfer" interlock, loosly patterned after a Square D unit. It does meet code as a transfer switch (maybe not the homemade version, but intent is the same).

I have attached a pix. A piece of aluminium stock and some screws and spacers did it. About one afternoon to do the whole job.

As you can see, you must have the main OFF before you can slide the bar to allow the generator feed breaker to be turned ON.

One other note is the SERVICE light in the top. I used a neon light assembly with an additional 50 K resistor along with a 2" ceramic standoff on the panel. A ball pen spring on the end contacts one of the main lugs of the service before the main CB. This lets me know when the utility has power up again, since where I am located I can't see any indication if power is back on.

The setup works great and I have a nice set of instructions nect to the panel for the wife so she can get the power up if I'm away.

paul

 

[alco141]

techman,
that is a great looking setup and a lot cheaper than the $300 transfer panel. what kind of tools did you need to make it?
did it take you long?

alex

 

[techman]

Alex:

The interlock bar is a piece of 1/8" aluminium. I cut it out with a band saw, but a jig saw or hack saw would work as well. The slots were milled and filed, but a drill and file would do as well. The screws have short spacers on them that fit the slots in the bar and let it slide.

About half of the time was making and adjusting a cardboard sample to get the dimensions and shape right. I had to use what panel space was free, which basically defined the overall shape. Using the cardboard template, cutting it out and mounting it was quick. The remaining chunk of time was relocating the breakers/circuits so that the generator breaker would be up top next to the main. All-in-all it was less than 6 hours one saturday afternoon.

paul

 

[gerard]

Now that's some neat thinking techman!!! Great idea. Especially the light before the main disconnect. I thought of that AFTER I had them run the circuit and AFTER they plugged the meter back in /w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif Wanted to just put in an outlet so I could plugged in a radio for the same purpose. Oh well, maybe next time. As it stands all I do is go down with everything running and the light on, throw the generator circuit off, throw main on. If I have light then line power's back, if not the main goes back off, generator back on. Not as easy as walking down and looking for a light but still not too bad.

 

[gmason]

This is similiar to the way I ran mine. I added a 60amp breaker to one of my two 200amp service panels. I ran a 20' 8ga 4wire line to the end of my garage to run my ac225 welder. Each of my service panels have a main disconnect at the top to disconnet the main power. So to run my 6500w generator to my house I simply turn off the 2 mains and route my generator 240v to my 60amp breaker and activate one of my panels. I can move a few of the breakers over to the side that is "hot" to run, say the basement lights when needed. This enables me to run virutally the whole house(not all at the same time).
Ok, this is not rocket science and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif, but it seems to work for us and it's safe for the lineman repairing the line and I don't have to buy and install a transfer switch. Breakers are a easy way to go.

gary