Pulling tree out with wheel & chain?

   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #41  
Those kinetic energy recovery straps make me really nervous because the whole point of them is to store and transfer that energy. Snapping one of those must be a puckering experience I imagine...
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #42  
I've got a number of scrub oak that I need to clear out of an area, and I'd prefer to yank them out rather than just cut them short as they sprout suckers madly and I prefer to avoid poisons.

I've managed to pull out smaller specimens with my tractor using a chain - up to a few inches in diameter - but when they get bigger than this it's not doable, as these scrub oak have crazy strong roots. these aren't anything like a pine tree, which while it's got a tap root there's not a lot else and they come out readily just being pushed over (besides, cutting those is permanent)

I've seen people use an old wheel so that there's an initial upwards pull, and I have questions before trying to find a reasonable wheel for this -

1 - I'm guessing the bigger the wheel, the better? I tried using a piece of steel I-beam I had, but it was too unstable and fell over to the side before I could get enough tension on it (working solo) to have it do any good

2 - has anyone had luck with this wheel method pulling scrub oak or something with similarly obnoxious roots?

There's way too many of them to dig out with the backhoe.
Never used the wheel method. I have a Sylvester. Sylvester’s Pullers
It was my father's before me. Note the remark about safely pulling out the timbers in coalmines. That was my father's job for 25 years - officially called a Colliery Timber Drawer (it says so on my birth certificate). Dangerous work because the roof fell when the props were drawn. Money was good. He was given it by someone who I presume "acquired" it from a mine. I know the box as an Elliott block.

I took it to Australia in 1979, back to Scotland in 1992, Portugal in 2003, and back here again last year. I used it often for moving many things and pulled small trees here last autumn. I am old so it is obviously easy to use. In Portugal I pulled some fairly hefty old olive trees. If the chain goes over something with a bit of height (maybe an old root stump of another tree, or a wheel) it gives the vertical lift. I usually use a longer anchor chain and if the anchor is stronger than what is to be moved the only limitation is the strength of the chain. I have a good one. I also have a piece of square tube so that the handle length can be increased to 2metres or 6.5ft approx. That makes it very easy to pull a lot of weight or break suction. Not light, but easy enough carried to where you cannot get a machine or vehicle.
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain?
  • Thread Starter
#43  
Pulled a couple smaller trees with the contraption the other day.

There's not a chance of breaking even my 5/16" chain here, my traction was so bad (R4 tires on hard-pack dirt lol).

I have no idea who welded the triangle originally (may have been me ages ago) but one of the welds broken off, cold weld with no penetration. Will fix that.
Also going to weld a chain hook on top as the gold chain is a pain to loop around enough to get it short enough to hook back to itself.

Finally, future tries I'll cut the tree first so that I can position the tripod such that I'm not wasting as much pull getting the initial tension (besides reducing the lift weight, though that's minor compared to the strength of the roots).
 
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   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #44  
@ning that looks easy-peazy! Nice job and thanks for sharing.

All the best, Peter
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain?
  • Thread Starter
#45  
A couple years ago I talked about setting up an A-frame thing to help pull trees in this thread.

I did make it (I had the A-frame from a different project, added feet and grab hooks); it's very heavy and cumbersome, but definitely effective.
It doesn't really work with the tractor, because I don't have a winch on the tractor, and I don't have enough traction... but I did buy a winch for my truck, which I can then anchor and winch the tree over.

Using the winch, especially with a remote, is key here because getting the A-frame set up and connected it's kind of unwieldy and with the remote winch I'm able to hold the A-frame up in position while getting the pull line ready to hold it up. Obviously I get out of the way for the actual pull.

Originally I was going to use a chain to pull with my tractor, so the A-frame has a horizontal grab hook at the top. I used a ~16' length of 3/8 chain I have connected there; there's a big slip hook that the winch hook is attached to.

The A-frame has a vertical grab hook at the top as well; that's connected to another chain which goes to the base of the tree; the chain there is wrapped around the trunk three times with a slip hook that's grabbed by the chain going up - with that the chain just gets tighter around the trunk and it didn't slip up the trunk at all despite this tree not having any protuberances for it to catch or tighten on.


The tree being pulled here was really well anchored in some deep rock. There were rocks embedded in the roots that did come out but a couple really big roots got busted off below ground. The tree removal left about a 25-gallon ready-made planter that I dropped a Meyer Lemon tree into; it's at the top of the garden space up there and the lemon won't grow to the point that it'll shade the garden like the oak was going to shortly.

The winch didn't really care about the tree with this setup. I had it stop and go not because of strain but just out of general caution.
And yes I should've probably untwisted the anchor strap first (the tension in it was from me driving the truck forward to tension it; the truck didn't budge during the pull.)
 
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   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #46  
@ning nice! And a great video. That looks very effective.

FWIW: I have usually seen the A frame start at an angle toward the tree, so that for the first section of the pull more of the force of pull becomes increasingly vertical, helping to wedge the A frame down. Your method works great as it is though.

Time for me to build one here for the things that I can't just rip out with the tractor...

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain?
  • Thread Starter
#47  
@ning nice! And a great video. That looks very effective.

FWIW: I have usually seen the A frame start at an angle toward the tree, so that for the first section of the pull more of the force of pull becomes increasingly vertical, helping to wedge the A frame down. Your method works great as it is though.

Time for me to build one here for the things that I can't just rip out with the tractor...

All the best,

Peter
I was limited by the big rocks around the tree for foot placement. It did start at an angle, just not very much, but luckily it was enough.

I must say I'm tempted to put a winch on the tractor to be able to do this on parts of my land that aren't as accessible by the truck. I don't think you need a 12k winch for most trees when you've got the upward component, a 3500# would probably do it since the A-frame gives a good (if brief) 5x mechanical advantage (depending on angles). Definitely need to have the puller anchored though; a logging winch would be perfect with an A-frame...

... or you know what, some sort of a winch mount x anchor combo SSQA attachment would probably be ideal. I'm thinking of a heavy blade-like thing, maybe with deployable ripper shanks (for softer ground), that you set into the ground; the winch is also mounted on this, so there's actually no stress on the tractor proper (other than electrical - unless you use hydraulic winch). The winch action tries to drag the attachment forward, but the blade & rippers hold it steady.
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #48  
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #49  
Recovery straps do break.
My friend was pulling me out in reverse, strap broke and went through his windshield.
No injury but scary.
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #50  
I've been thinking through my options for removing some tree trunks that I've already cut.

Reading the arborist forums, some of those guys distrust using any truck or tractor as an anchor point for tree work, one issue being that tires only have so much ground contact.

While 3pt forestry winches incorporate blades to resist the forces of winching an already downed log, I don't recall seeing any examples of someone using one to winch out a stump.

Right now, I am wondering how effective it would be to toss some of HF's moving blankets over the lines/straps used to pull if they were to break? The moving blankets are pretty cheap to buy.
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain?
  • Thread Starter
#51  
Good progress. You could get one of these and mount that winch on anything with a 2" receiver.

That's what my HF winch is mounted on actually; I put a receiver on the front of the truck - initially to provide a front tow-point since these trucks didn't come with recovery hooks and the frame ends where the bumper mounts aren't appropriate on their own - the frame rails aren't connected together until a few feet back so you could tweak the rails if you pull to the side on one. The receiver hitch spans between them right at the end providing extra structure... and obviously enables a removable winch, which I also wired to the back of the truck.

I've been thinking through my options for removing some tree trunks that I've already cut.

Reading the arborist forums, some of those guys distrust using any truck or tractor as an anchor point for tree work, one issue being that tires only have so much ground contact.

While 3pt forestry winches incorporate blades to resist the forces of winching an already downed log, I don't recall seeing any examples of someone using one to winch out a stump.

Right now, I am wondering how effective it would be to toss some of HF's moving blankets over the lines/straps used to pull if they were to break? The moving blankets are pretty cheap to buy.

Not only do the tires have relatively low traction, but a lot of arborist winch work has the line going up into a tree, so it's lifting the truck off of the contact - reducing the traction. Pulling on the A-frame that I have, on flat ground, would result in a slight upward pull (the pull point on the A-frame is just under 7' up); in this video I was actually pulling slightly down.

The other problem of course that assuming it's an automatic transmission with the parking break engaged, you can only count on traction from both rear wheels (from the parking brake assuming it's well adjusted) and partial from the front unless you have a locking front differential, unless someone's in the truck with the brakes engaged, and then they're vulnerable to a broken line coming back.

Biggest concern I'd have with the forestry winch vs stump is that there could be higher forces and forestry winches are usually set up with a steel cable, which has a tendency to whip if it breaks under tension. The 3ph forestry winch does have a screen in back, but I don't know if it's got sufficient coverage to guard against the whip. You could put a synthetic on the forestry winch, but then you'd have to be more careful with it dragging, which happens when pulling logs... pulling a stump out is a short pull so it's easier to guard a synthetic line for that.

Synthetic lines barely stretch and typically just drop if broken, but adding weights on the line still can be done for insurance.

I anchored the truck from behind with a 30k strap to a solid tree so I wasn't concerned about movement; a previous attempt to use the A-frame just with the tractor pulling had poor results because R4 tires on damp ground kinda suck; best case without an anchor is you're going to mess up the ground at least a bit.

I think the biggest concern with broken lines in vehicle recovery tends to be because people don't slowly add load but instead try to yank. A chain that's placed under tension slowly will just drop if it breaks, but if you start with a loose chain and yank on it really hard and it breaks, much of the chain is already in motion and as such things do it's going to stay in motion until something stops it. Static recovery straps are safer than dynamic, though they're harder to use - the dynamic allow you to get some momentum on the puller and then the dynamic strap stretches and transfers a chunk of that momentum to the stuck vehicle, but then you've got a lot of energy stored in the strap from stretch plus you've literally given it some velocity (toward the pulling vehicle). With a static strap and tension slowly applied, there's very little energy stored from stretch and no appreciable velocity from the pull, so a break anywhere - tow hook, strap, tow shackle or hitch, stuff just drops.
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #52  
The HF moving blankets are lightweight. What I read elsewhere seems to favor those saddlebag looking winch dampeners that have a bit of weight to them. I don't know what the best safety option actually is, but welcome any discussion about this. I hate to think some bad accident could have been prevented if only someone had known to put something over the line or not yanked on it.
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #53  
The HF moving blankets are lightweight. What I read elsewhere seems to favor those saddlebag looking winch dampeners that have a bit of weight to them. I don't know what the best safety option actually is, but welcome any discussion about this. I hate to think some bad accident could have been prevented if only someone had known to put something over the line or not yanked on it.
For safety, synthetic winch line. Period. There is essentially no stored energy. It is not without issues, like abrasion, and friction issues.

Rigging is, I think, an opportunity to be smart, and also to be life threateningly stupid. e.g. Using snatch blocks can do wonders for improving anchors and redirecting possible trajectories for broken items. Snatch blocks also give you opportunities for improved application of forces, e.g. level pull to the winch, but up from the snatch block to an attachment higher on a tree. I see tons of "rigging 101" shortcomings and failures on YouTube. Please get to know your chain / rope / line / strap load limits and safe usage, and please don't use frayed items, or items with unknown to you histories. Dispose of items when they have gotten overloaded. Logging used to be one of the most dangerous occupations for a variety of reasons, but casual approaches to rigging was certainly part of it.

I have an aversion to band aids on safety items. I would not use blankets or saddle weights on lines. If you think that there is an issue with a pull, or how it is rigged, start over.

There are lots of resources and courses around, and for good reason. Many jobs require it as part of the description, though it isn't usually written into the "farmer" / "rancher" job description specifications, although I think it is good to know.

There are free sources out there, e.g.

YMMV...

All the best,

Peter
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #54  
I was limited by the big rocks around the tree for foot placement. It did start at an angle, just not very much, but luckily it was enough.

I must say I'm tempted to put a winch on the tractor to be able to do this on parts of my land that aren't as accessible by the truck. I don't think you need a 12k winch for most trees when you've got the upward component, a 3500# would probably do it since the A-frame gives a good (if brief) 5x mechanical advantage (depending on angles). Definitely need to have the puller anchored though; a logging winch would be perfect with an A-frame...

... or you know what, some sort of a winch mount x anchor combo SSQA attachment would probably be ideal. I'm thinking of a heavy blade-like thing, maybe with deployable ripper shanks (for softer ground), that you set into the ground; the winch is also mounted on this, so there's actually no stress on the tractor proper (other than electrical - unless you use hydraulic winch) Arborist hobart. The winch action tries to drag the attachment forward, but the blade & rippers hold it steady.
I'm going to be pulling some rather large shrubs out of the ground this spring. Probably a half ton a piece. About 5' x 10' x 5' high. They're very overgrown and ugly.

I plan on saturating the ground and throwing a log chain around each one and pulling with 4WD Low. I've got a K2500. Does it make more sense to pull from the front tow hooks or the rear trailer hitch assembly?
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain?
  • Thread Starter
#55  
I'm going to be pulling some rather large shrubs out of the ground this spring. Probably a half ton a piece. About 5' x 10' x 5' high. They're very overgrown and ugly.

I plan on saturating the ground and throwing a log chain around each one and pulling with 4WD Low. I've got a K2500. Does it make more sense to pull from the front tow hooks or the rear trailer hitch assembly?

Assuming the chain goes down from the truck connection to the shrub, I'd say rear as the pull will increase rear tire ground force and thus rear tire traction (front traction may get compromised). Attaching to the front may end up reducing rear traction, though it similarly would likely increase front traction.

I've always used the rear trailer hitch for similar pulls on my truck, but then I didn't have a tow connection on the front till this past winter when I added a hitch to the front ('97 F350 had no oem tow hooks).
 
   / Pulling tree out with wheel & chain? #56  
I'm going to be pulling some rather large shrubs out of the ground this spring. Probably a half ton a piece. About 5' x 10' x 5' high. They're very overgrown and ugly.

I plan on saturating the ground and throwing a log chain around each one and pulling with 4WD Low. I've got a K2500. Does it make more sense to pull from the front tow hooks or the rear trailer hitch assembly?
Be VERY careful with that! Pull from the rear, if you must. Wrap a blanket around the chain. Do a search on this (or other) site for the damage (death) a broken/flying chain/hitch can do.

Personally, I'd find a different way to remove 'em (backhoe, excavator...).
 

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