QA Bucket Rollback Angle Increaser???

[N80]

Dougster, could you post a pic of your current bucket attachment?

 

[Dougster]

Dougster, could you post a pic of your current bucket attachment?

By sheer coincidence... there are numerous pix of it online already at the beginning of this thread:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/mahindra/102940-ml112-fel-issues.html

Are you going to design me one?

Dougster

 

[CATMAN]

With small pebbles, you almost need something like a 4 in 1 bucket set-up or something like a hydraulic grapple affair with a steel plate attached to the grapple teeth that could close down onto the pile and squeeze down to the front cutting edge, thus holding in the pebbles.

Could you set your boxblade behind the pile to create a temporary backstop?​

 

[Dougster]

Could you set your boxblade behind the pile to create a temporary backstop?

Not really, They go right up against the back of a building that I do NOT want to hit or damage in any way. I'm working as close as I dare right now... even some manual labor to be able to stay far enough away from the building when backdragging the stuff away from the walls.

Dougster

 

[civesnedfield]

Doug,
I know you would like to use the bucket you already have and just modify it a little bit. I believe the easiest and safest way to do what you want to do is to get another blank bucket to start with. When you attach the QA bracket you can make up shim plates, tubes ect. to move the bottom of the bucket away from the machine. I know that this isn't the cheapest way out but it is the one that make the most sense to me.

 

[Dougster]

Doug, I know you would like to use the bucket you already have and just modify it a little bit. I believe the easiest and safest way to do what you want to do is to get another blank bucket to start with. When you attach the QA bracket you can make up shim plates, tubes ect. to move the bottom of the bucket away from the machine. I know that this isn't the cheapest way out but it is the one that make the most sense to me.

Actually, I don't want to modify a bucket at all. I envision this "device" strictly as an adapter that I could use on any standard QA bucket... I have two buckets already (72" light duty and 78" HD) and am going to be getting a third smaller toothed digging bucket before too long... and possibly a stump bucket sometime before I die.

Still sounds like I need to invent this device and patent it quickly... yes?

Dougster

 

[civesnedfield]

OK now you've got my brain working overtime. I have only had my tractor since Thursday and I am running thru my mind the back of the bucke and the QA plate. I do believe that you are onto something. Part of the problem is that the adapter will have to almost fill the whole back of the QA plate on the back of the bucket. This is because the QA plate adds support to the bucket without the support you run the risk of warping or damaging the bucket. I know what you want to do but without the bucket in front of me I am having a hard time seeing an answer. Let me sleep on it, I know that I can figure out a way to come up with an adapter. Oh yea if ya use my idea I want in on the patent.

 

[Dougster]

Oh yea if ya use my idea I want in on the patent.

And your name was...???

Dougster

 

[civesnedfield]

Funny man.
Just looking at a picture of the back of the bucket got the shim figured out. I just don't know how to deal with the locking system yet. I know that something that you could just slip in would be ideal. With the available gaps between the bucket bracket and the loader frame right now I am thinking that you would have to weld something to the lock slot on the bucket. You do know this is going to keep me awake all night.

 

[Dougster]

Funny man.
Just looking at a picture of the back of the bucket got the shim figured out. I just don't know how to deal with the locking system yet. I know that something that you could just slip in would be ideal. With the available gaps between the bucket bracket and the loader frame right now I am thinking that you would have to weld something to the lock slot on the bucket. You do know this is going to keep me awake all night.

Think: Side supports Ed... Side supports...

Now, go to bed and get some sleep. It will all be clear in the morning.

Dougster

 

[civesnedfield]

Piece of cake got it now I think. Do me a favor and post a picture looking at the QA from the outside. All of your pictures from the other thread were looking on the inside of the QA. If I can get a good look at the side I think I have something that will work.

 

[john_bud]

Think: Side supports Ed... Side supports...

Now, go to bed and get some sleep. It will all be clear in the morning.

Dougster

Dougster,

Your modification can be done in about 2-3 hours of fab work by a competent shop with a plasma cutter, drill press and welder. 4 pieces of steel plate and 4 pieces of ¼” wall DOM tubing per side. You will need 2 extra hardened pins or grade 8 bolts.


I took the liberty of using your picture. Hope that's ok.

 

[civesnedfield]

Wow, that would work.

 

[Dougster]

Dougster, Your modification can be done in about 2-3 hours of fab work by a competent shop with a plasma cutter, drill press and welder. 4 pieces of steel plate and 4 pieces of ¼” wall DOM tubing per side. You will need 2 extra hardened pins or grade 8 bolts. I took the liberty of using your picture. Hope that's ok.

Very creative idea JB! This goes back more toward my idea of converting to a compound bucket linkage rather than using an angled "in-between" QA adaptor. A couple potential problems I see that maybe you could address about your concept:

1) If I got this right, you are effectively kicking out that bottom pin to increase the bucket rollback angle... but because the top pin is only attached to the cylinder rod end and is free to move out also (i.e., away from the FEL frame), wouldn't you need a lot of bottom pin kickout to achieve that bucket scoup effect I am looking for in the FEL down position? In fact, you could only increase the bucket rollback angle as much as you could increase the bucket cylinder angle in the fully retracted position, correct? If this is the case, how far out do you feel that bottom pin could be moved on a removable... adapter like... design before the bottom of the FEL arms would be digging into the ground below grade during a bucket scouping action?

2) In an adapter arrangement, what in the design prevents the two bottom pins from simply pivoting on each other and merely moving the bucket upward when the bucket cylinders retract to the maximum rollback position?

Dougster

 

[Dougster]

Piece of cake got it now I think. Do me a favor and post a picture looking at the QA from the outside. All of your pictures from the other thread were looking on the inside of the QA. If I can get a good look at the side I think I have something that will work.

Ask and receive ...

Dougster

 

[john_bud]

Very creative idea JB! This goes back more toward my idea of converting to a compound bucket linkage rather than using an angled "in-between" QA adaptor. A couple potential problems I see that maybe you could address about your concept:

1) If I got this right, you are effectively kicking out that bottom pin to increase the bucket rollback angle... but because the top pin is only attached to the cylinder rod end and is free to move out also (i.e., away from the FEL frame), wouldn't you need a lot of bottom pin kickout to achieve that bucket scoup effect I am looking for in the FEL down position? In fact, you could only increase the bucket rollback angle as much as you could increase the bucket cylinder angle in the fully retracted position, correct? If this is the case, how far out do you feel that bottom pin could be moved on a removable... adapter like... design before the bottom of the FEL arms would be digging into the ground below grade during a bucket scouping action?

2) In an adapter arrangement, what in the design prevents the two bottom pins from simply pivoting on each other and merely moving the bucket upward when the bucket cylinders retract to the maximum rollback position?

Dougster

#1 - The top location is actually fixed. The steel that separates the top and bottom pivots keeps them from moving relative to each other. Hydraulic pressure keeps the cylinder end from moving in and out. So, in your mind's eye, envision the top hole/cylinder not moving and the bottom moving forward. Bucket tilt increases. You don't need to do anything with the cylinder locations to get this increase.
As the "new" pivot location is farther back from the old location, when the bucket swings down to level for digging in the dirt or gravel the bottom mount is actually FARTHER away from the ground. The only way it is closer is if you back drag with poor technique and use the back of the bucket instead of the bottom of the cutting edge.

#2 - the blue plate sits edge on (butt'ed against) the edge of the QA plate. The front pin is a bolt (if it is temporary) with a tight spacer and then clamped down. It ain't going anywhere. You could use belt and suspenders by adding a bolt in the yellow plate in the top left corner. Or weld it on.


So, are you an electrical engineer ?

jb

 

[Dougster]

So, are you an electrical engineer?
jb

Ouch!!! That hurt!!! Don't have to go insulting me now just 'cause I am a little slow visualizing how your design would work!

I must admit that I would have to build a little cardboard toy model to fully understand your design and address my lingering concerns. Seems almost too easy, but sometimes things are like that!

Dougster

 

[john_bud]

Ouch!!! That hurt!!! Don't have to go insulting me now just 'cause I am a little slow visualizing how your design would work!

I must admit that I would have to build a little cardboard toy model to fully understand your design and address my lingering concerns. Seems almost too easy, but sometimes things are like that!

Dougster

He he he....
Just a little eng to eng humor!

A thick cardboard box would be best as it would match the end material thickness (3/8"). And yes, it is easy. Simple pivot point change to alter the max back angle and reduce the dump angle. Old design (non-4 link) have about 20-25 degree tilt and full dump. This will about double that to 45 degrees - maybe a tad more.

jb ChemE UMR

 

[MtnViewRanch]

He he he....
Just a little eng to eng humor!

A thick cardboard box would be best as it would match the end material thickness (3/8"). And yes, it is easy. Simple pivot point change to alter the max back angle and reduce the dump angle. Old design (non-4 link) have about 20-25 degree tilt and full dump. This will about double that to 45 degrees - maybe a tad more.

jb ChemE UMR

If I understand this correctly, Doug might want to make this pemanent.

 

[Dougster]

If I understand this correctly, Doug might want to make this pemanent.

Nope... I'm not a permanent kind of guy! I like things I can add on... and then remove when not needed. Because this tractor is now a small business of sorts for me, I like the tractor to look its best when it arrives on every new job. I am probably the only person you'll ever find... other than the infamous and legendary "Bill6" who touches up the paint on his tractor and trailers after every job! That's in addition to a good pressure wash and re-greasing!

A cop working a road reconstruction detail in front of my house asked recently if my tractor was brand new. When I told him it was a 2004, he was shocked. That's the reaction I like... let them think it's brand spanking new right off the showroom floor!

Dougster