Raising Horses

[RichZ]

Cowboydoc, or any other people with experience raising horses, I have a question. My wife and I have been searching for livestock to raise on our small farm, that doesn't have to be killed to make money from. We've eliminated llamas and alpacas (very limited market for wool), sheep (wool prices are now very low), so we're thinking of going back to our original idea of raising horses (or even minature horses). We've got about 4 acres of pasture of our own, and about another 10, our neighbor will let us use permanately. Do you have any suggestions about getting started? What breeds we should consider? We personally love draft horses, because of their personalities, but we're open to anything. Our funds are low, so we don't want to get into expensive breeds. We have a barn with several box stalls, already set up for horses, because we're temporarily housing our neighbors 3 horses. We actually don't want them to go when they build their own barn, because we really love them. Any advice would be appreciated!!

Rich

 

[gws]

Rich, Is your goal to make money or have fun in rasing animals? Sounds like your attached to the neighbor horses, so are you going to sell yours horses or just keep them? If you plan on keeping them, then why would llamas not be an option. If you simply want to keep animals, llamas can be a cost effective alternative. Low up keep, minimal vet cost and wide range of initial cost investment, Minimal shelter needs. With only 4 acres, even if there was a HUGE market for wool, you couldnt house enough llamas to make much money anyway. You can always raise llama and sell them. You can also build a market for what llama wool your do have. Forget your traditional wool marketplaces. Go to the craft and spinning folks directly.

if you havent figured it out, I own llamas

Hey, I am Gary

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Gary,

Tell me more about the llamas. Heard they'll protect the other livestock from predators. How effective are they? Do you need more than one? Also heard you have to trim their teeth every six months or so.

SHF

 

[RichZ]

Gary, we'd like to make some money raising the animals, as well as have fun. We are thinking about getting llamas in the future, just for fun, but we also want to raise some critters to make money on, in a gentle sort of way, i.e. not something to be killed for food. We're animal lovers, and couldn't bear to see something we've raised killed, even for food. But possibly selling horses to people who will love them, is appealling.
Regarding the llamas, we have another 10 acres of pasture at our disposal, so we could have quite a few, but the market for the wool doesn't offset the expense of the llamas, so we'll probably get a few as pets or companion animals in the future. Do you sell your llama's wool? If so, to who, and would you mind me asking what it goes for? Here in upstate NY, we were first told it goes for $10/ounce, but there's no way you can get anywhere near that. The only market here is to private spinner groups, and so many people around here have llamas, they don't want to pay enough to make the effort wothwhile.

Rich

 

[rf33]

There are a few different strategies for making money from horses. One of the most profitable would be to purchase a broodmare and breed her to an outside stud, and then raise and train the baby yourself and then sell the baby. This option takes some know how, but if you have a local equine vet, he or she can likely help you through the more difficult parts (for a nominal fee of course /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif). The price you can get for the horse depends on many factors such as the bloodlines, and the level of training you have put into the horse, as well as some more difficult to control factors such as the baby's disposition and coloring.
Another strategy would be to board horses for others. In many areas of the country, especially near large cities, there are many people who would like a place to keep and ride a horse, but without the expense of maintaining a seperate property of their own. This can be the easiest type of business to get going, but it takes careful attention to detail, as well as a dedication to the people, and horses. Minature horses are cute, but I think that the demand for them is limited in most areas as they are useful for little more than "Yard Ornaments", and as such, you migh have more trouble selling these (at least in the long run, as they seem to be one of those hot one day, cold the next "pets"). One additional piece of advice about the horses: Do not leave them in those box stalls for extended periods of time, as ths is very unnatural for the horse, and his/her attitude and willingness to work will likely suffer.

Ron

rf33

/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[RichZ]

Ron, thanks for the info. The three horses we have right now have access to one large box stall at all times. We have an electric fence in the pasture, which leads to the paddock, which leads to the box stall. The three horses are pals, and in bad weather or when its hot they hang out in the box stall, other than that they're in the pasture. I know keeping them in a box stall can lead to problems such as cribbing.

Rich

 

[Richard]

I don't know anything about this thread in detail, but from a conceptual point of view, I'd offer a thought to you.

You said "sheep (wool prices are now very low)"

Seems to me that could be the very time to start? Sort of like buying stocks. You want to buy them when no one else wants them and sell them when everyone is screaming for them.

If the market for wool is low now seems to me you might be able to acquire the sheep inexpensively? Since market is low, others might get out of market? When that happens, market goes up and here you are ready to sell. (could you "stockpile" the sheared wool for a while??)

Again, certainly isn't a perfect analogy but I thought I would throw in the idea for contemplation. I certainly don't know ANYTHING about acquiring/housing/shearing sheep but in the arena of stocks, seems most people don't go to the store when stocks are on sale. They typically wait until the sale is over before making purchase.

Richard

 

[gws]

SHF,
Llama can be trained as guard animals. They work well with sheep, goats and smaller animals. Lllamas are heard animals so you need at least two animals. In a guard arrangement the flock will act as its companion.
You need to remove their fighting teeth when they are young and might over time need to trim, but not every six months. You do have to trim there feet a few times a year depending on the hardness of your pasture.

Hey, I am Gary

 

[gws]

I only have 2 llamas so the amount of wool I would get is minimal. I only do a barrel shaving of my llamas and dont strip them bare like you would a sheep. I usually give the wool to the person doing the shearing.
I have no idea what it sells for. Operational cost for keeping llamas is very small. 1 bale/week per animal during the cold winters, unless you get over 4 to an acre, most pasture should handle the llamas 3 season needs.

Hey, I am Gary

 

[cowboydoc]

Rich,
First of all unless you can get some pretty expensive horses you are going to go in the hole raising horses. There are too many "mutt" horse out there now. You can go to the horse sales and buy good bred horses all day long for less than a $1000. Good older trained ones for $1500-2500. Now just to get that foal on the ground is going to cost you a minimum of $1000, so if you sell for $1000, which you won't, the day the foal is born you break even for 11 months of work taking care of the mare. Now if something goes wrong, and it will at some point you are going to have some expensive vet bills. The $1000 comes from the cost of keeping a mare for a year, vet checks, stud fees- not a very good stud at that, etc. Anyway I've done the math every year for too many years to count and it's always the same. Unless you have a very good foal you aren't going to get a $1000 from a low grade mare and stud. Plus there are too many good horses out there to add more "mutts" to the list. Now unless you know how to train horses add about $500 a month to get one broke and ready to sell. To get one trained really well you are looking at at at least 6 months and $2-3k. If you can train one yourself then you only have the about $50-100 a month it will cost you to keep a horse. ANYWAY what I'm trying to say is that unless you have high dollar horses you aren't going to make any money on them and will probably lose big time. And you only get one foal a year. You would be much better off to spend $1500 on some good bred dogs and sell puppies. You would make 50 times the money you would selling horses. I don't even consider buying a mare unless I know that I can sell her baby for at least $3-5k without training. My stud horse was $25,000 and that's cheap for a good one. Unless you can spend some big time money then it's not worth it to try and make money at. Most anyone who's honest about it will tell you the same thing.

Now as far as what Ron said about boarding there you could make a little money, but the work you'd have to do would not be worth it in my opinion, plus you have people with access to your place at all times. To full board a horse you are looking at between $100-500 depending on where your area is. You have guaranteed income there but it's alot to keep up with the horses. If someone is paying you to keep their horse they usually expect alot.

The draft horse and miniature market is the same. No depend for low quality horses and not worth your time to breed them. You have to spend alot to get started and have something that people will pay for.

If I was you as far as horses for money don't even think about it. It just doesn't pay.

As far as other animals that you can make money on without there ever being a consequence that's a tough one. Most animals are raised for either their pelt, their meat, etc. Anything that you could make money on is going to end up in some kind of product. You could raise chickens, but again alot of work and eventually they have to be culled when they start laying and well what else do you do wiht a chicken that doesn't lay eggs? What about raising a vegetable garden? Farmer's markets are huge around here. The small vegetable farmers bring their vegetables into parking lots, etc. on the weekends or specific days of the week and sell them. Nice profit there. Don't even think about wool though. There hasn't been any money in wool for 20 years and not looking good in the future. The problem with animals, unless you find a niche like dogs, is that anything that has some real value the corporations have all made it into a science and for you and me to try and raise anything and sell you operate on a thin, if any, profit margin.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but horses aren't the way to go with a money maker.

 

[RichZ]

Richard, thanks for the info! It's pretty much what I expected, but my wife really has her heart set on some sort of livestock farming. I have huge respect for your opinion on horses. I know you know what you're talking about.
We already got the chickens, and we have a large garden going to start figuring out what crops we can grow in the future. That will probably be the way we go.
We still love horses and probably will always have some, just to enjoy, despite my ordeals this morning. (See my other post)
As always, thanks for your advise!!

Rich

 

[ERNIEB]

Rich, I've been around horses most of my life. I guess I know a little about them. I've developed a sort of love/hate feeling toward them. My first thought would be find something else. I do not now own any, nor do I want any. But If it's something you really want to do, then I offer this.
You can fill a bookcase with all the books that have been written on this subject, but I think it all boils down to finding a market and trying to fill it. I'll give you some examples that are being done by people I know.
Roping and cutting horses are popular around here, and a good one can bring thousands of dollars. The trouble is that it's not just a matter of training, but something that is "in" the horse. You might start 10 horses, and only one will end up being good enough.
A couple I know buys Thourghbreds that can't cut it on the race track and convert them into hunter/jumpers.
Speaking of Thourghbreds, pinhooking can be very lucrative, but also risky. This is buying colts or yearlings, and selling them as two year olds in training or after a start or two. I know a guy who bought a yearling for $1000.00 and after it won its first start, sold it for $25,000.00
A friend of mine does what I think is the simplest thing. He beeds colorfull horses, Appaloosas and Paints, and sells them as halter or green broke. His customers tend to be first time horse buyers, especially young girls who have rode a friends horse or one they rented, they have read some books and at least think they can train the horse themselves. Because of their flowing manes and tails, I suspect Arabians would be good for this as well.
Well, for what it's worth, there it is.



Ernie

 

[cowboydoc]

Ernie,
Right on all accounts and agree with you. I train and breed roping, cutting, and reining horses so I've got my market. I train them myself so I do pretty good but training for this type of work is typically $500-$1000 a month. Problem is if you have to have some high dollar breeding stock to get the high dollar horses or people won't buy them either.

Just so Rich doesn't get the wrong idea those $1000 horses that turn into $25k ones are like a needle in a haystack. Plus you've got alot of hours and money into even getting one to the track.

You're right you can make money on them but you've pretty much got to be the raiser, trainer, bank etc. all in one or it's mighty tough to turn a buck. You're also right about the 1 out of 10 that really make it. The others are good horses but don't make it to the upper level.

AMEN about a love and hate relationship /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

 

[Bird]

<font color=blue>The small vegetable farmers bring their vegetables into parking lots, etc. on the weekends or specific days of the week and sell them. Nice profit there.</font color=blue>

Nice profit there? That's what I'd heard, too. Some years, I pick up a little pocket change that way, but you won't come close to making "minimum wage." I guess it would depend to a great extent on your location, but the only livestock I've heard of recently that makes money is raising goats, especially Boer goats (if you don't make the mistake of paying a high price for purebred breeding stock).

Bird

 

[cowboydoc]

You're right of course Bird. What I was referring to was that it was something that you at least wouldn't go in the hole on. For farm and ranch businesses I know alot of farmers and ranchers that would take minimum wage. I figured it up about five years ago and I made about 25 cents an hour doing horses after all the bills were paid! But I have alot of land, good horses and cattle and at least I'm not going in the hole. Plus add in that I love it and it's a pretty good deal. But make money, hmmm tough to do that.

 

[Bird]

OK, Richard, I guess we're on the same page./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif A few years ago (1994 to be exact), I saw one of Texas' big ranchers on the TV news one night (Amarillo TV station) when they were talking about cattle prices and he said "You raise cattle for prestige and sheep and goats for money."

Bird

 

[ERNIEB]

<font color=blue>Problem is if you have to have some high dollar breeding stock to get the high dollar horses or people won't buy them either.</font color=blue>
Your right, Richard. These days most Thourghbred breeders use the dosage system. If Your not familar with it it's just a way of giving individual horses numbers, with the hope of predicting the outcome of a mating. It still comes down to what the old breeders use to say. "breed the best to the best, and hope for the best."
The figures you gave for training a roping horse is about the same as a race horse. Or at least for a run of the mill claiming horse.
Pinhooking is very risky. I just mentioned it because it's the only way I've seen that someone became a millionare strictly from horses. At best, a long shot.



Ernie

 

[patrickg]

Just remember the difference between investing and speculating. Following the "contrarian" advice could lead to a higher percentage of profit but I fail to see how the size acreage would permit enough stock to "pay" with exotics (llamas, emus, etc) or even sheep.

You have a minimum of two employees regardless of how small your business is. To make a profit on the low volume you are forced toward high value merchandise (stock). Not what you wanted. I think the boarding idea is a real good start. You don't buy expensive stock. You gain experience dealing with the animals, vet(s), feed store, clients, etc. If later, based on your successful experience and desire to continue with horses, you elect to raise some horses to sell you have gained valuable experience on several areas that caries over into raising and selling. Even the experience with horse owners is preperation for dealing with horse buyers (they are the same people). Doing both boarding and raising/selling is compatible activities and alows for a smooth transition between the two.

Best of luck to you, (carry a significant level of liability insurance)

Patrick

 

[GrantMO]

Rich,

On this subject I'm the novice and my wife is the expert, at least in a couple horse areas. When she is looking at a horse to buy she is always talking about the conformation or making a comment such as "he's a pretty mover." Now, I have an idea what she means by this but I can't see it unless specifically pointed out. What this means is that she can pick a quality horse and if it were left to me I'd come home with a cow-hocked half lame reject. Not really, but you get my point. Even if you don't get into breeding I think it pays to have someone around that can identify a quality horse that will fit your purposes. You meet tons of "experts" among horse people so I'm not quite sure how to find someone who really knows their stuff. A quality vet can certainly check out any horse and he/she may have some people he knows who can advise or Richard might be able to suggest some other ideas.

 

[rf33]

Got to agree with you on all of these issues Doc. Making money on horses is a tough road. I hope that I was not misunderstood in saying that you could make money by raising babies. I really meant the could part... You might also lose money, it depends on many factors, quite a few of which are outside of your control. Boarding is also quite a pain, as you have to allow other people access to your place, and have to take care of horses which are not your own. I was only trying to point out the possibilities as to horses. I think that the other option which was offered of buying babies and putting some training into them and trying to sell them at a markup is really not as viable for a horse newbie.


rf33

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