Rattle in PTO

[Hooked_on_HP]

My Ford 1900 4x4 with 2 stage clutch has a rattle in the PTO when under a moderate load. It sounds normal turning with out a load . It sounds like a bearing. I cannot tell if the noise is comming from the transmission housing or the rear end housing. The PTO shaft doesn't wiggle so I am guessing it is an internal bearing. The service manual doesn't give a real good diagram of the PTO shaft and bearings. Can I access the PTO by removing the lift cover. At this point I am just trying to find which bearing is bad before starting a majior dissasembly. Does any one have any ideas to make this simpler to detect.

Bill

 

[JC-jetro]

My Ford 1900 4x4 with 2 stage clutch has a rattle in the PTO when under a moderate load. It sounds normal turning with out a load . It sounds like a bearing. I cannot tell if the noise is comming from the transmission housing or the rear end housing. The PTO shaft doesn't wiggle so I am guessing it is an internal bearing. The service manual doesn't give a real good diagram of the PTO shaft and bearings. Can I access the PTO by removing the lift cover. At this point I am just trying to find which bearing is bad before starting a majior dissasembly. Does any one have any ideas to make this simpler to detect.

Bill

Hey Bill, sorry for your problem.

I have not done this repair or opened the tractor up enough to get to pto inner mechanism but studied some of the diagrams. Here is some of my thoughts.

- When I opened the transmission cover and PTO shaft cover right in front of the operator seat noticed the bearings are huge and very stout looking on my 1700. They get plenty of splash lubrication so hard to see then having issue shorter that the life of tractor unless they are running real dry.
- you don't have ORC as momentum of the rotary implement can not propel
your tractor, so all you have there is an siding coupler.
- can you with engine off, transmission in neutral , cluch out turn or wiggle the pto a bit. what happens if you get a wrench on the pto pipe and try to turn it a bit (not too much force)... I'm taking your problem might lie in the pto shaft, it's spline to first clutch plate or something brocken in the clutch assembly.
-I do the above test with the clutch completely pressed in as well and compare and contrast the results.
-One of the guys here changed and ORC on his 1700 and had to remove the lift cover and additionally the the axle as well. his pic was taken with his cell phone so it was not the most clear.

-I hope no spline in the pto input shaft is busted either at the clutch or at the sliding coupler.
- looking as the diagrams it appears the short stubby PTO shaft might come out from the rear without taking cover off. Not completely sure. when you take the cover off in the back I think there is a bearing pressed there as well.


keep us posted. I hope you don't have do major dis assembly


JC,

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

JC, I think it does have an orc. I was wondering if it could be making the noise.
Bill

 

[sweep]

My Ford 1900 4x4 with 2 stage clutch has a rattle in the PTO when under a moderate load. It sounds normal turning with out a load . It sounds like a bearing. I cannot tell if the noise is comming from the transmission housing or the rear end housing. The PTO shaft doesn't wiggle so I am guessing it is an internal bearing. The service manual doesn't give a real good diagram of the PTO shaft and bearings. Can I access the PTO by removing the lift cover. At this point I am just trying to find which bearing is bad before starting a majior dissasembly. Does any one have any ideas to make this simpler to detect.

Bill

Bill, check that pto cover first. Mine was loose and when I turned on the pto it rattled against the rear end housing and sounded just like a bad bearing.
You can never tell.

 

[JC-jetro]

JC, I think it does have an orc. I was wondering if it could be making the noise.
Bill

I don't think it has ORC. I looked at the parts breakdown. it only shows sliding coupling. with two shafts and when the pto is coupled directly to first clutch then why would you need orc ?.You would have orc with hydro or anytime that the main clutch is single. ORC is to keep rotary implement from turning transmission gear and eventually tractor wheels without operator intervention. Sweep has a good point it might be loose round external Pto shaft cover.

ORC can have broken tooth leading to the noise you're hearing but you don't have one.

JC,


ps. If you look at TC-30 with dual clutch they don't list ORC for it, they do for transmission driven pto and hydro trannies.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

Well it definatly has an orc. With the tractor shut off I engaged the pto. I can turn the pto shaft one way but not the other.
I started dissasembly tonight. The seat came off without any problems. I disconected the hyd lines for the loader, I removed all the bolts for the lift cover. I tried fo 1/2hr to get the lift cover off with no luck. Some one had had the lift cover off before and used some type of glue or sealer that I can't break loose. I even hooked the engine hoist to it and tried lifting it off. I just lifted the rear tires off the ground. I checked 3 times to make sure I had all the bolts out. So now I am on hold untill I can figure this out.
Bill

 

[Jerry/MT]

My Ford 1900 4x4 with 2 stage clutch has a rattle in the PTO when under a moderate load. It sounds normal turning with out a load . It sounds like a bearing. I cannot tell if the noise is comming from the transmission housing or the rear end housing. The PTO shaft doesn't wiggle so I am guessing it is an internal bearing. The service manual doesn't give a real good diagram of the PTO shaft and bearings. Can I access the PTO by removing the lift cover. At this point I am just trying to find which bearing is bad before starting a majior dissasembly. Does any one have any ideas to make this simpler to detect.

Bill

Are you sure it doesn't have a independent pto. If it does, then there is a clutch pack that is actuated by hydraulic pressure when you engage the pto lever.

There is no ORC as I know an ORC. The ones I'm familiar with are used with transmission driven pto's like the Ford N series and the Ferguson TO-20 & TO-30, etc and are external to the tractor.

 

[JC-jetro]

That might prove the ORC..maybe .... I wonder why it was not clearly named or identified in the parts break down. there are a couple of studs on the diffy to line up the hyd cover so you can not bang on the side of the cover to loosen it up. You might take a cold chisel and give it few light strikes at the seam... might loosen it bit. did you take all the bolts plus the nuts? are you lifting the back of tractor up?

jc

edit:

this is where they might have an ORC. although I could not find specific to double clutch pto description.

15 1 SBA322340850 GEAR Gear, "A", Double Clutch, 28T, 19 Splines, W/Live PTO, 1900 When using this Gear,Ref. 3 & 14, 16 thru 22 are not used., Start Year: 07/01/1981

 

[JC-jetro]

Are you sure it doesn't have a independent pto. If it does, then there is a clutch pack that is actuated by hydraulic pressure when you engage the pto lever.

.

jerry,

your statement is true, but it does not apply to 1900 as it does have an independent pto (hydraulically activated) option. they have transmission driven pto or live, double clutch option. what Bill said it quite indicative representative of orc operation.

jc



edit: correction forgot to add "Not" to my statement. 1900 does not come with hydraulically activated PTO. it is live dual clutch or transmission driven single clutch.

 

[JC-jetro]

Hey Bill,

I thought of something that might help you separating lift cover off of the diffy. I'm sure you know what "pullers" or sometimes "pushers" are. I have got couple of options here with the second option easier to do in my opinion.

pusher #1.

are you familiar with AC Delco radial AC compressors? at time magnetic clutch would go out and needed replacement or if you needed to change the compressor but wanting to keep the clutch. this device was made out of two pieces. Outer piece was threaded that match up to clutch inner thread. The inner part of tool had a stud that was threaded to the inner of the outer piece. You simply tightened the tool against the clutch and then turn the inner rod CCW and the stud pushed the clutch out against the compresor input shaft. Easy as a piece a cake fabricating this tool is much more difficult and you got to be very lucky (unlikely) if the tool already created matches up with your thread.

Pusher #2.

You have to build this yourself a pusher, look at the pic below. You need to get yourself a flat bar 3/8" or better 1/2" thick slightly longer that the distance between 3 bolts. The bolts in the back of the lift is taller due to thickness of the lift. You'll be needing 3 bolts from the back. Now drill 3 holes slightly larger that the thread dia of the attaching bolt. at this point you need to find yourself a nut the can be welded on to the middle hole. You then get yourself a piece of all thread or reebar and on a grinder chew the diameter down where it would fall without resistance in to the threaded hole in the diffy. You should be able to retrieve it easily using a magnet out of the hole. Cut a piece pf rounded round bar 1/4 shorter than top of the lift cover.

final procedure: drop the rod in the hole, mount the horizontal oice to the lift cover with two outside bolt snug, screw one of the longer bolts in the welded nut in the middle and start tightening it. That will push the cover against the diffy with a strong point load. I'll be cautious of uniformly apply pressure on both side to not to god forbid craking the lift cover. The point load will be strong.

Let me know what you think.

JC,




The middle hole welded nut should be something like below. Please disregard the look of my weld puddle , it don't look good but the nut is stuck good.

 

[barbqranch]

Hi Bill,

You said you could lift the back of the tractor off the ground with the engine hoist. Perhaps if you lifted (maybe not off the ground, but some upward pressure) and then tapped the cover with a BFH, the shock might release it. Another idea would be to heat it a little and then hit it with the upward pressure. Or even tap the joint with a cold chisel like JC suggested.

Just make sure that if it pops off with the upward pressure, nothing hurts you.

 

[Jerry/MT]

jerry,

your statement is true, but it does not apply to 1900 as it does have an independent pto (hydraulically activated) option. they have transmission driven pto or live, double clutch option. what Bill said it quite indicative representative of orc operation.

jc

So it has an internal ORC?

 

[Jerry/MT]

Well it definatly has an orc. With the tractor shut off I engaged the pto. I can turn the pto shaft one way but not the other.
I started dissasembly tonight. The seat came off without any problems. I disconected the hyd lines for the loader, I removed all the bolts for the lift cover. I tried fo 1/2hr to get the lift cover off with no luck. Some one had had the lift cover off before and used some type of glue or sealer that I can't break loose. I even hooked the engine hoist to it and tried lifting it off. I just lifted the rear tires off the ground. I checked 3 times to make sure I had all the bolts out. So now I am on hold untill I can figure this out.
Bill

is there anything internal that must be loosened via an access cover to release the lift cover?

 

[JC-jetro]

So it has an internal ORC?

I have to correct my statement "it does not have a hydraulically activated pto". I forgot to add "not", in that vintage of ford tractor they all have internal orc when required. Mine has the same and it is clearly shown on the part breakdown. Bill's tractor has dual clutch , the pto clutch shaft has nothing to do with transmission mechanism and no chance action of rotary cutter momentum to move the tractor forward.

JC,

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

I got it apart. I used a portapower going from the drawbar to where the top link attaches. :thumbsup: What I found was a gear that is chattering not a bearing. The shaft and gear came out pretty east after removing the retainer and driving out the expansion plug. As you can see the gear is is chewed up on one side of the tooth only. I don't know what caused this. I looked on Messicks and the gear is $306.00.:thumbdown: I am thinking about just turning the gear arround so it would be driving against the smoth side. The gear that this gear drives is in perfect shape. I am wondering if vibratin from the flail mower or brush hog may have caused this.
Bill

 

[Jerry/MT]

I got it apart. I used a portapower going from the drawbar to where the top link attaches. :thumbsup: What I found was a gear that is chattering not a bearing. The shaft and gear came out pretty east after removing the retainer and driving out the expansion plug. As you can see the gear is is chewed up on one side of the tooth only. I don't know what caused this. I looked on Messicks and the gear is $306.00.:thumbdown: I am thinking about just turning the gear arround so it would be driving against the smoth side. The gear that this gear drives is in perfect shape. I am wondering if vibratin from the flail mower or brush hog may have caused this.
Bill

Some of those gear teeth look damaged along the full length of the tooth. I don't see how turning the gear around will help.
I wonder if they was a screw up when thy hardened the teeth (they may not have hardened all the teeth )because all the teeth are subject to the same load when the teeth are engaged but not all the teeth are damaged. If it were me, I'd bite the bullet and replace the gear. If it fails, you'll be replacing more than one gear!

 

[Jerry/MT]

I have to correct my statement "it does not have a hydraulically activated pto". I forgot to add "not", in that vintage of ford tractor they all have internal orc when required. Mine has the same and it is clearly shown on the part breakdown. Bill's tractor has dual clutch , the pto clutch shaft has nothing to do with transmission mechanism and no chance action of rotary cutter momentum to move the tractor forward.

JC,

JC,
I looked at the parts drawing and i think what you are calling a orc is really a hand operated clutch that engages the pto on the 1900. That implies to me that it's an independent pto that is just not hydraulically actuated like the bigger machines have. Is this correct? I'm just trying to understand how this system works. I can't tell from the drawing what kind of clutch mechanism it has. Is it a Spragg type clutch that only allows torque to be transmitted in one direction of rotation and not the other?

 

[JC-jetro]

JC,
I looked at the parts drawing and i think what you are calling a orc is really a hand operated clutch that engages the pto on the 1900. That implies to me that it's an independent pto that is just not hydraulically actuated like the bigger machines have. Is this correct? I'm just trying to understand how this system works. I can't tell from the drawing what kind of clutch mechanism it has. Is it a Spragg type clutch that only allows torque to be transmitted in one direction of rotation and not the other?

jerry,

sliding gear and coupling is what you have seen in the diagrams that is hand operated by sliding a fork in an out. On mine I do have an ORC (internal) and sliding gear coupler to activates it. On John Deere they call some of the mechanical operated pto with double clutch "independent" . the difference is the foot pedal is not two stage and separate hand clutch activates the pto. you can check their 5000 series that have that configuration. Pretty much the rest call independent when the main clutch is single. There are two input shafts, inner and outer. the pto shaft is directly splined to the crankshaft so any time engine is on pto is turning. The coupling of this shaft is done by a set of hydraulically activate wet clutch pack. the actuation is done either by a switch to open up a solenoid to provide hyd pressure or by a mechanical arm. the mechanical arm only opens a hyd valve. It is obvious in "independent PTO" a sliding gear would have issue as you can press the clutch all the way and the internal pto shaft keeps on turning.

jc,

 

[JC-jetro]

I got it apart. I used a portapower going from the drawbar to where the top link attaches. :thumbsup: What I found was a gear that is chattering not a bearing. The shaft and gear came out pretty east after removing the retainer and driving out the expansion plug. As you can see the gear is is chewed up on one side of the tooth only. I don't know what caused this. I looked on Messicks and the gear is $306.00.:thumbdown: I am thinking about just turning the gear arround so it would be driving against the smoth side. The gear that this gear drives is in perfect shape. I am wondering if vibratin from the flail mower or brush hog may have caused this.
Bill

Bill,
did you check with Wengers of pa, I think the gear in question is pto counter shaft. They have one in stock for $56, although they list out 1910 instead of 1900. you might give them a call also. If that is what you want then it beats the heck out of NH price. If I did not have a better option I would turn the gear around like you suggested and lock it in place and put a threaded cover over the pto. It always turns but if you have a cover on it would not be very dangerous. Obviously you'll hook implement always with the engine off. Check the link below to see if that is what you need. what is NH part # you're looking for?

JC,




Ford, 1910, PTO, Sub-Component, GEAR - PTO COUNTERSHAFT, SBA322320670 at Wengers Of Myerstown

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

Today I took a closer look at the gear and it apears to have some hair line cracks in it. I called Messicks and ordered a new one. $330. to the door I hate buying used parts like gears. You never know how hard they were used. I should have the gear friday so I can have it back togethr this weekend.
Bill