Ready to cry over my TC-24D

[SacandagaBrad]

Hi all, been a while since I've stopped by.

Had my TC-24D since October 2003, bought brand new and been a good machine. Used for grading private gravel road, clearing snow off of same and driveways, mowing about 1.5 acres, built a couple driveways, general loader work, moving docks, basic home owner stuff. No commercial use, never abused. Has 60" MMM, 72" RB, 12LA loader, and a Woods 54" rear snow blower. Over 900 hours to date, fluids changed according to schedule, but will admit the 300 hour service is over due by about 20 to 30 hours.

Just started leaking hydro fluid, coming out of the cast casing that shrouds the front drive shaft at the transmission end. Leaking enough that oil covered my mower deck after 45 minutes of mowing. Only leaked when it was running. Had a similar leak about 3 years ago that originated in the same area, oil was running down front drive shaft until it hit the bottom and dripped off. Found loose bolts at the main split in the tractor, dealer said that could stress the input shaft seal and about an 8 hour job to split and replace. I tightened the bolts with loc-tite and the problem went away. So when I described the problem this time, but with a lot more leaking, they figured about an 8 hour job.

Got the news yesterday that they split the tractor AND split the hydro tranny, machine is in 3 main pieces and several boxes. They are 11 hours into it, finding seals that need replacing but nothing severely damaged, and are now figuring 24 hours labor plus parts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How the **** does a machine this expensive and supposedly well built have these kinds of problems? This is not basic maintenance or reasonably anticipated repairs at a certain time in its life. For the type of work I do with it, this should be a lifetime tractor. If I knew I was headed into a $2500 repair bill, I would have first considered trading it (being up front with them about the leak). Who knows how much longer it will last, they are a long time NH dealership and have good mechanics, but the bottom line is this thing is being completely rebuilt in areas that were never intended to see the light of day.

As I'm typing this, I had another thought. Back in the beginning, during the first time I ran the snow blower, I stalled it out hard. The drive shaft to the impeller fan is a straight run, no gear reductions etc. as far as I can tell. I picked up a small stone (#2 driveway stone) and pinched it with the fan. Running 2500 ish RPMs for 540 RPM at the PTO. It stopped that impeller and the tractor motor cold. Based on the scrape, the fan traveled about 10:00 o'clock to noon before it stopped. Turned out that Woods had a typo in their manual calling for a grade 8 shear bolt in the drive shaft, should have been a grade 5. I confirmed this with them. Wonder if that incident could have started all this, even though 10 years ago? http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/31711-grade-8-shear-bolt-confirmed.html?highlight=

Anybody else ever have these problems? Up to now, I've loved my blue machine. Not so much right now, only reason I would consider another is so I wouldn't have to buy new loader and mower.

Going to talk to them this morning. Wondering if this is something I should involve the NH reps to try to get some relief?

 

[DK35vince]

I guess you can ask the reps for some relief, but your not going to get any for a leaking seal on an 11 year old machine.

 

[dave1949]

I doubt the one rock in the blower caused the problems to develop. If it happened a lot and you were experiencing pto issues now, then that would be different.

Running with the loose main split bolts probably didn't help, but I doubt you will get much relief from NH on a ten-year-old tractor--but asking is free. Loose bolts seem to be a common theme with small NH tractors. I've found a few on my TC40.

As to the cost of repair, if it is done well, you should get many more hours of operation out of that tractor with very few issues. Bad luck, but way cheaper than a new tractor.

 

[SacandagaBrad]

agreed a 10 year old tractor is beyond expecting any help from the factory. But finding I'm not alone on the same vintage and model machines as I poke around on this site, so the free questioning can't hurt. Maybe there is some help or recall on the parts etc.

 

[jwstewar]

Wow, I'm feeling better about the time I spent doing the job. Working leisurely and doing lots of reading I was about 7 - 8 hours tearing mine apart - including stopping to eat. Then putting it back together took another 20 - 24 hours - again lots of reading and looking at pictures and figuring stuff out. Also had to figure out how to "combine" the tractor back together. That took a bit. Wouldn't have been near as long had I not broken that one bolt in the case. I spent probably 8 hours on that alone.

Hmmm...24 hrs x 70 = $1680 + parts, ouch that starts getting pricey.

 

[SacandagaBrad]

Hmmm...24 hrs x 70 = $1680 + parts, ouch that starts getting pricey.

Yeah, no kidding! I'm now expecting $2K to $3K. Far beyond what I would consider reasonable or anticipated repair costs over the course of owning a tractor, especially within 10 or 11 years. Wondering if it is an age thing - you have nearly twice the hours I do but our machines were built the same time. Is NH capable of making seals that last more than 10 years? Or are we going through this again in 10 years? I was considering asking about a trade, where the dealer really doesn't have much tied up other than the labor in mine. But I don't want another one! Just hoping this one will get me to retirement and I'll leave it with the house when I leave this miserable state.

I get that it is a complex machine and mechanical failures happen. But to have to come up with this kind of cash on what was sold to me as a "lifetime" machine only 10 years ago at $11,500 (tractor only, another $7500 tied up in implements most of which can't be used with another brand) is unacceptable IMO. It has been well maintained and no commercial use.

 

[jimmysisson]

I'm not sure how loose your bolts were back then, but seals on shafts don't expect to see angular deflection and probably were damaged. Most any brand machine might act the same way... You got my full sympathy on the repair expense though - hate that! Hope it works out decent for you.
Jim

 

[SPYDERLK]

Got the news yesterday that they split the tractor AND split the hydro tranny, machine is in 3 main pieces and several boxes. They are 11 hours into it, finding seals that need replacing but nothing severely damaged, and are now figuring 24 hours labor plus parts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How the **** does a machine this expensive and supposedly well built have these kinds of problems? This is not basic maintenance or reasonably anticipated repairs at a certain time in its life. For the type of work I do with it, this should be a lifetime tractor. If I knew I was headed into a $2500 repair bill, I would have first considered trading it (being up front with them about the leak). Who knows how much longer it will last, they are a long time NH dealership and have good mechanics, but the bottom line is this thing is being completely rebuilt in areas that were never intended to see the light of day.

Agreed. ... Tell em you want to see the parts. Seals normally weep a while before they really leak. It sounds as if there are bearing problems causing damage to the seals.
larry

 

[jwstewar]

See my thread here: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/new-holland-owning-operating/307339-major-transmission-hydraulic-leak.html

Mine didn't weep first, my bolts had never been loose. The dealer went through everything in the pump and found no issues with mine. So......

 

[SacandagaBrad]

So here we are 3 weeks later. Was getting put back together on July 3, but they were closed for the 4th weekend so had to wait till Monday. They had split it 3 ways, past the hydro pump all the way to the tranny. On three separate occasions admitted they never actually found a bad O ring or seal. They did not mess with the factory seals on the hydro pump itself as they looked good and didn't want to disturb them. Monday was testing day, I called from work on Tues to offer my credit card so I could pick it up after hours, came in at $2K plus tax! Got through to the manager only to find out it was still leaking!!!!!!!!!!!!! And they needed to order and replace a steel hydro line that didn't need to have the machine split again, was a simple fix. Would be a few more days. That's when I started to fume a bit. Why didn't they start there rather than split the tractor 3 ways? Seemed like having a valve job done on your truck because there was a loose spark plug wire. Basically $2K into a hydro fluid change is what it amounted to, granted it was due, but I could do that for a lot less. Fast forward to tonight, new steel line has been installed!!! And still leaking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Needs to go back into the shop for more diagnosis. At this point considering trading, but I really didn't want to spend money on a new tractor. I'm just climbing out of a hole from putting 2 kids through college (youngest will be senior in Sept). But even worse, I have no intention of putting that kind of money into a hydro leak on an 11 year old tractor. We still don't know where it will end, didn't get a running total tonight. They are a good dealer and working with me, we'll see where we go from here. They sell NH and Kioti. They don't have a Boomer 24 on the lot and I can't get a warm and fuzzy over the orange one, especially considering they don't have a mid mount mower designed yet. I really like my old TC-24D. They have a couple used TC 24 and 26 on the lot, newer than mine but with as many or more hours, and they look like they've been through a war compared to mine. No interest, I take pretty good care of my things.

 

[jwstewar]

I still bet you it is the hydro pump. My pump didn't show any thing either. When they took my pump apart I asked them to make note of anything they saw that was "bad" and let me know. They said they couldn't find anything, but with the seal kit installed in the pump, my tractor is now completely dry. I've put 45 fairly rough hours on it since the first of June without issue.

 

[SacandagaBrad]

Thanks Jim. I will mention your experience to them this morning. They have gone back and forth on saying they found O rings and seals that should be replaced but none that were damaged or obviously bad, and have said on at least 3 occasions that they found no issues inside regarding actual leaks. The steel hydro line they found leaking later was with a camera, basically arthroscopic surgery, and it was in fact cracked. How? They don't know. I asked about any castings, they said the leak is coming from the area ahead of anything that stores the hydro oil. You are probably right, that leaves either the hydro pump itself or an improper replacement on one of the other seals. Hindsight being what it is, they should have done the seals on the pump, they claimed it was a major job? I don't feel I should be paying the labor to do the same job twice, we'll see how that goes. We're not talking $100 or $200 here, was $1500 in labor alone prior to finding the steel hydro line.

 

[SacandagaBrad]

I still bet you it is the hydro pump. My pump didn't show any thing either. When they took my pump apart I asked them to make note of anything they saw that was "bad" and let me know. They said they couldn't find anything, but with the seal kit installed in the pump, my tractor is now completely dry. I've put 45 fairly rough hours on it since the first of June without issue.

Ding Ding Ding Ding! Status update: Spent about an hour at the shop yesterday, no mechanics there but the manager was. Told me they put the tractor up on a lift, ran it while they used their scope camera to poke around and found the input seal on the hydro pump leaking! At least he admitted that symptom was consistent with my explanation of the bolts coming loose a few years ago and that I probably hit the nail on the head with my theory on stressing the seal. I said that I understand hindsight is 20/20 and its easy to say I told you so, but why didn't you start with scoping that seal and save all the labor and aggravation? He is still convinced they "slowed" down the leak and there was more than one, I'm not so sure about that and wonder if they are just trying to justify all the labor as accomplishing something. This leak started a few years ago, I "fixed" it by tightening the bolts at the split and told them back then about the problem. When it started this time, there wasn't anything gradual about it, it just started a steady drip only while running.

He also admitted that they don't like to disturb the factory installed o-rings and replace all those they have done in the process, many of which might not have needed replacing if they split it where they needed to in order to get at the pump.

So she gets split again tomorrow on their dime. In the meantime, they are working up some numbers for a trade on a Boomer 24. I really don't want a new tractor, but not sure I want to put all this money into my old one that will now have been split twice with all the factory seals broken and replaced. Unfortunately, the new model can't use my existing FEL or MMM, so they too have to be new.

 

[SacandagaBrad]

Oh! And without a machine to mow my yard and the neighbor's yard (mowed it for years, makes one continuous nice looking yard) I worked on my old rider Gravely that I sold to that neighbor 10 years ago. Ethanol ate away at the gasket material that is part of the diaphragm in the fuel pump. Sprayed gas all over the exhaust, not a good feature! Got good old permatex form-a-gasket to work on it, let it sit most of the day, and fired her up. That over-built old machine mowed pretty good considering the dull blades, got the whole yard done. No hydraulic lift, no power steering, "grippy" engagement clutches, no suspension seat, and a loud vibrating single cylinder Kholer 12 hp thumping along under my fanny, but she did the job at almost 30 years old! Sure makes me miss the comfort of my TC though!

 

[jwstewar]

I understand missing the comfort of the TC. I was using the F-I-Ls Tradesman (MTD) with a 27HP Briggs and a 54" deck and no power steering. Sure made me miss my New Holland. Especially at fill up time. We were mowing about half the normal grass just because it couldn't do the whole yard as what we do with the New Holland but we used about a gallon more gas than I do diesel doing the whole yard.

Good luck if you decide to do the trade.

 

[jwstewar]

So what have you found out Brad?

 

[SacandagaBrad]

Well Jim, it's like this. They completely split the machine again and removed the hydro pump. Ordered a seal kit for it rather than just a seal, I need to get into the business of making those! From what I could tell, three shaft seals and a paper gasket in the event you ever need to actually split the hydro pump - $292. Well, the mechanic still could not see where a seal appeared bad, but he did notice the gasket weeping! First time they have seen that, lucky me! So the hydro pump has been split, gasket was found to have cracked at the top, replaced that and all the seals that came with the kit. Re-assembled, they've run it for a few hours without a drop of hydro fluid leak!!!!!

In summary, they split the tractor, replaced all the O-rings, replaced the thermostat that was sticking open, re-assembled, still leaking. Found a cracked steel hydro line, replaced it, still leaking. Split again, split hydro pump, replaced all seals and gaskets in that, re-assembled, and done. 5 weeks in the shop (they offered on several occasions to provide a loaner for mowing), $700 in parts, filters, fluids, and "shop supplies", $1800 labor, and of course the 8% NY state government fee. They figure they have over 50 hours labor in it with it taking three tries and two splits, but of course the ate half of that since it was their mistake not getting it right the first time. After the first re-assembly, they had 20 hours labor in it. They charged me another 4 hours for the hydro pump rebuild. A lot of labor, but seeing what was involved during my numerous visits to check up on it, I think it was fair. At least I have all new filters and hydro fluid, it was due for its 300 hour service. Even the front axle is done, they had just done a wheel bearing job on in June.

So it came down to $2700 repair after 11 years, or $15,000 plus tax to trade up to a comparable NH or Kioti, neither of which I like better than mine. Still, as the name of this thread implies, enough to make you cry.

 

[Rocketcaver]

What an ordeal! Hopefully that's the last time you'll have to have it in the shop for a while.

 

[jwstewar]

That sounds exactly like mine, they couldn't "see" anything wrong with mine either, but obviously for both of ours, it was the issue. Glad it is fixed and taken care of.

 

[Danica]

I was following this thread and noted your comment about “getting out of this state” and finally I see later it is NY, yes we are a way overpriced mommy-state. Taxes are insane.