Snow Equipment Owning/Operating Rear weight for pushing snow

Bob_Trevithick · Jan 7, 2002

I was going to post this in the existing thread about ballast and counterweight, but it seemed more appropriate to give it it's own thread, as this has nothing to do with FELs.

I have a JD 4300, R4 tires, with a 66 inch front blade. On the back, I have a King Kutter DS-30 30 inch dirt scoop, which I have loaded with sand bags for traction while pushing snow.

I believe the front blade weighs a bit under 500 lbs.

The dirt scoop weighs about 250 lbs.

I'm looking for the best weight to use for traction on ice and snow.

I'm sure there is some sophisticated formula I could use to determine the ideal weight to use out back, but I have no idea what it would be.

I found that 11 of the 60 lb. sand tubes fit pretty well back there. This would give me somewhere around 900 lbs. Does this seem a reasonable place to start?

I guess the goal is to get the maximum amount of rear wheel traction while not unbalancing the machine to the point that the front end is light and the front wheel drive becomes useless.

Given our lack of snow so far, I haven't had a chance to find out empirically what works best, so I'm wondering if anyone has done something similar, and can give me a ballpark idea of how much weight would be ideal?

Thanks,
Bob

Von · Jan 7, 2002

Bob,Remember the weight up front will be off of the tractor and on the ground when you lower the front blade. I don't think you will need that much weight in the back, but give it a try and see what happens. I like to be as lite as I can be, so I don't brake thru the ice on my rink. Of course that all goes out the window when I have enough ice and I can drive the Zamboni out there. That "pig" weighs in at 8500lbs when filled with water!

TerryinMD · Jan 7, 2002

Bob,

You kinda segwayed into a question I was going to ask. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I was wondering the same thing. I did my first plowing this morning with my 4100. FEL with Woods RB60 rear blade. I didn't put my chains on thinking that the wet snow wouldn't be that bad. I had the tractor in 4wd and the dang thing started to spin its wheels going up the hill with the rear blade down. The blade has skid shoes which give it about 3/8 inch clearance from the ground.

Just like Bob asked, would it be wise to add a couple hundred pounds to keep the back end from spinning. I was thinking of making up some wheel weights from 25lb weights as posted a couple of days ago.

Terry

MarkV · Jan 7, 2002

Von,
I smile every time I hear about your Zamboni. Down here in Georgia you just don’t think of someone having a Zamboni sitting next to the Toyota in the garage./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Hope your getting some good skating time in this Winter.

MarkV

frank_f15 · Jan 7, 2002

TERRY: i have been plowing snow for many ,many years. don;t care what size tractor, tires, filled, unfilled, chains or weight.at times and in right conditions u are going to spin your wheels. best is to use propper driving, and placement of your fel or blade, sometime u may have to make 2 passes , but my 2400 is by far the easiest i have used for clearing my drive.i had a ford 2n with filled tires(ags) with chains and thet sucker would spin more than my bota, reason? all the weght of the big fel would off load the rear end the min, the front wheels went down.

Hillbilly · Jan 7, 2002

I went through last winter with the R-4 tires and this winter I have the R-1 tires,all the difference in the world.I went through the woods tonight after dark on long inclines 20% plus grade about 5" of snow and never hardly turned a wheel(the ground froze hard under the snow),if I still had the R-4s on I would still be in the woods waiting for summer time to get out.

Bob_Trevithick · Jan 7, 2002

Hi Hillbilly,

...I went through last winter with the R-4 tires and this winter I have the R-1 tires,all the difference in the world.

I'm kind of surprised to hear this. I would think that, on ice, the R4 would have more contact area on the ground, and hence better traction. Do you find that's the case on pure ice, with no snow on top of it?

Hillbilly · Jan 8, 2002

On pure ice nothing has much success unless its chains or studs.The R-4 tires have there place and need,but in my situation and everday use they just were not up to the task the R-1 tires fit the bill.
Last year I could not even make it up out of my driveway with a snow blade,last night with the R-1 tires I just cruised right along./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Von · Jan 8, 2002

Mark,My kids are having a ball playing hockey in the back yard! It has really helped my son in his skills when he is playing on his team. Right now he leads the league in scoring and is one of the smallest kids in the league! This is the first year of checking and the size difference of the kids at this age is large. You have got kids that are 5'8" and 150 lbs and then my son at 4' and 55lbs. The other teams have a hard time catching him and he is hard to hit because he is so small. He loves to duck along the boards and sneak past the checkers and then head straight to the net! I haven,t used the Zamboni yet this year as the ice is too thin to support it. I got on it with the Kubota and used my new snow blower for the first time yesterday. Only broke thru in a few spots, so I just fill the divits with snow and add water. This fills the holes up solid. They say we are going to get rain tomorrow so that will give me some more ice if we get enough. You are all welcome to come up and play in my back yard!/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Just don't forget your stick!

Bob_Trevithick · Feb 1, 2002

...just like Bob asked, would it be wise to add a couple hundred pounds to keep the back end from spinning. I was thinking of making up some wheel weights from 25lb weights as posted a couple of days ago.

A little update.. I finally got to do some plowing last night, and I think I over-did the weight a bit at around 600 lb. out on the 3pt hitch. At one point I was trying to push with my blade angled to the left, which one would think would cause the tractor to tend to steer right. But no, it was trying to slide left down a slight slope. Turn the wheels right did nothing, and I actually had to back up and take a different tack.

I think I'll yank the sand bags and just try it with the approx 250 lb dirt scoop. We'll see if it makes a difference.

On the bright side, I sure didn't get stuck! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

On the not-so-bright side, the ground wasn't frozen, and I kept pushing dirt along with snow, despite having my blade set at the highest skid shoe position. I was using the "float" setting, but often had to actually raise the blade to keep from piling up dirt along with the snow. But it'll freeze soon, and I'll get the hang of this before long! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

snowman · Feb 1, 2002

Bob;

I have a front blower on my B7500 and have the same problem re: steering.

If I have the blower in float, I can't turn much. I either have to raise the blower or back up, aim myself, and then start forward again.

My guess is that reducing your weight on the 3pt won't help you much. Before you spend time shifting around the various weights, try simply taking everything off of the 3 pt, then do some plowing. That way, you've gone to the extreme (nothing on the 3 pt). If the steering doesn't improve much, then you know that the weights aren't the problem.

The main benefit/reason for having as much weight as possible in the rear is to help provide traction when your blade is full of heavy wet snow.

In short, I think, as in my case, steering will never be great when you're pushing something.

glennmac · Feb 1, 2002

Terry, I have a driveway that slopes up from my house to the road, which I have plowed for two winters with a backblade. Sometimes when I am plowing up the driveway with snow on the blade, and sometimes even without snow on the blade, I will spin out........ I have now largely eliminated that phenomenon with a secret, patented, highly-advanced tractor driving maneuver: I plow downhill.

beenthere · Feb 1, 2002

Now Bob, you know what the right and left brake pedals are for. To help steer. Try those pedals out and you will likely find plowing to be a lot more fun. Also, picking up a bit on the front blade will get you out of the dirt a bit, and will also add some weight to the front wheels for steering traction. I wouldn't get rid of any weight on the rear end. Have fun.

Bob_Trevithick · Feb 1, 2002

...Now Bob, you know what the right and left brake pedals are for. To help steer. Try those pedals out and you will likely find plowing to be a lot more fun.

I'm mortified to admit that I forgot all about the right/left brake pedals! /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif Too many things to remember the first time out, I guess..

Thanks for the reminder!

Bob_Trevithick · Feb 1, 2002

...Also, picking up a bit on the front blade will get you out of the dirt a bit, and will also add some weight to the front wheels for steering traction.

You know, that raises a question. Being new to this, I'm always startled by how fast the front blade moves. If I do anything more than nudge the lever, the blade slams into the position I'm shooting for. I wonder if the hyrdraulics could be set up for a FEL, and the little blade on the front is so light maybe the hydraulics should have some kind of flow reduction device in them?

I don't know what I'm talking about, of course.. but does this make any sense?

beenthere · Feb 1, 2002

It makes a lot of sense. I put flow restriction in the lines to control the flow to my front blade, for just that reason. Talk to your deere dealer, and ask for some flow restriction inserts to put in the hyd. hoses going to the angle cylinders. Sometimes it takes a little trial and error to arrive at the flow rate you want Without them, it takes an extremely light touch as the deere hyd. system has a lot of flow and pressure. For the FEL, the hyd's is engineered just right. For the smaller angle and lift cylinders on my Western plow, it was just too fast.

Bob_Trevithick · Feb 1, 2002

...Talk to your deere dealer, and ask for some flow restriction inserts to put in the hyd. hoses going to the angle cylinders.

What about the up and down also? If I lift the blade without really thinking, it SLAMS up and makes a very unpleasant noise as it does so. I think I could also do a lot better job of not digging too deeply if I had a bit more fine control.

Do you just unplug your hoses and insert these restrictors and re-plug? Do-it-yourself kind of thing?

This is great to learn.. I've really had a problem adjusting to the delicacy needed for all of this.

Thanks, BeenThere!

beenthere · Feb 1, 2002

The hyd. coupler needs to be removed (taken apart from the hose) and the flat disc with a pin hole (to start with) added between the coupler and the hose. Best to talk to someone who knows what you are doing, and familiar with the deere hyd. pressures, hose connections, and flow. And yes, the lift cyl. needs it too.

DDT · Feb 2, 2002

Bob,
I had the same problem when I got mine. In time is able to move the lever just enough to love it were you want it. But it takes some practice.
DDT

Bob_Trevithick · Feb 2, 2002

I may end up getting used to it.. in the meantime my JD dealer is looking up the part number to get some restrictors for me. I can try it both ways. Thanks, Bob