Rebadging

[Cliff_Johns]

I've seen a lot of comments about rebadging tractors between brand names. Usually it's derisive, but I'd like to point out that rebadging isn't always the right term and having another company built part or all of your tractor isn't always a bad thing.

Just because a particular factory in China makes a Table Saw for Hong, Grizzly, DeWalt and Delta, does not mean that the Delta is a rebadged Hong. It often means that the same factory makes them -- that's all. Sometimes it means that the same assembly line makes them, but for key components, they pull parts from one box for Grizzly and another for Delta. Sometimes, machining stops at one stage for one brand and a different stage for another brand producing a smoother or flatter table top. Sometimes the brand name is attached, after the final quality control points.

My point is, that a factory is often building machines to the spec of the badge, not building a bunch of machines then putting the badge on them. And just because you look at the two and they look the same does not mean they are.

Of course, sometimes rebadging really is rebadging, but you can't know that without actually going to the factory and watching every step of the process.

Please believe I'm not defending/attacking or complaining. Just observing that our use of the term "rebadged" may be misleading or wrong in many cases.

In the current TBN climate, I admit I'm a little hesitant to post this, but I think it's an important distinction to make. I hope I haven't offended anyone.


Cliff

 

[KiotiJohn]

It was 95 degrees here today. Is that the kind of climate to which you refer? LOL
I don't see why anyone should be offended by your post. It's true now, and has always been true that companies make product for many others, and the quality is built to the standard of the badge, and always has been. If you were to buy a can of peas from "Green Giant," you may find that the peas all tend to be around the same size and few will be poor quality. That same factory may be making store brands for 20 other companies, and you may notice that the peas are of varying size, and sometimes more of them are split, or squashed. It's an old story that many people refuse to believe, and they continue to pay more for a brand name than for a generic that really has few differences that really matter. Of course, in heavy equipment, the changes can be more dramatic, and the longevity of the item may be shorter in a lesser quality build. John

 

[Soundguy]

I hear oil filter companies do that as well.

And speaking of partial assemblies.. that is a big market too.

While in college, I worked at a water meter factory. Big outfit ( ABB ).. and had very little competition around here. In fact.. their main competitor often bought incomplete assemblies from us and sold them as their own.

We would assemble the actual casting and meter body, and ship the meter head. Normally the meter head was held to the body by a black plastic ( or brass ) cowling.. and then had a flip top lid with sn and name. The units we sent to the 'other' company had no cowling or lid.. they used their own.

Townships and city public works department also sent us specs for their meters, and we built them to their specs and popped a lid on them with their cities name on it.

And yes.. they went on a different assemply line.. and had to test to different specs ( accuracy, leak, and freeze-pop tests ) than our regular production run.

I hadn't thought about that copmpaired to tractor assembly lines until now.. makes a bunch of sense now...

Soundguy

 

[rockyridgefarm]

So many times a re-badge could be a better not inferior product than a complete in house one...

 

[sweettractors]

<font color="blue"> It's true now, and has always been true that companies make product for many others, and the quality is built to the standard of the badge, and always has been. </font>

That has been my experience also. I worked for Mallory Capacitor back in the sixties and ran a machine that stamped the specs and Badge on the capacitor. The same capacitor may have had Bendix, Philco,Delco,Curtis Mathis etc stamped across the case. However, in acuality, the supervisors that instructed the assembly process made clear to the employees that for XYZ company you dont need to be so particular and crank out as many product as possible as quick as possible or maybe for another company with a big contract coming up for renewal, the employees were instructed to put extra effort into making sure everything was double checked for accuracy.-I see the same thing happening today in most all areas of production that do rebadging --Ken Sweet
Sweet Farm Equipment LLC *New Disc Mowers and Hay Tedders In Stock Today*

 

[cowboydoc]

That's a very good post Cliff.

 

[Bellville]

<font color="blue"> "In the current TBN climate, I admit I'm a little hesitant to post this, but I think it's an important distinction to make. I hope I haven't offended anyone. "

</font>

Cliff, I am kind of glad you said that, I have only been here since last summer, but I too have noticed a little change in the climate in the last couple of months. Thought maybe I was the only one.

No offense taken, nice post.


Thanks

 

[boustany]

One day I was at an appliance factory which made fridges and stoves. As it happened, I was in the market for a new fridge. I noticed that, although this factory made about 6 well known brands of fridges (sold by different companies, etc.), all the 'guts were exactly the same. The only difference was the shape of the doors and the trim.

So, I asked the guy running the operation what the difference was between Fridge 'G' and Fridge 'E'. He said the doors and the trim. I said 'but Fridge G has double the warranty, and costs a lot more'. He said they were identical, except the doors and trim, and the warranty (and pricing) was simply marketing.

The way I look at it, if I buy a Chinese product, I'm getting Chinese quality. If I buy a domestic product, I'm getting domestic quality. Now, it may be that a Chinese Delta is better than a Chinese Grizzly, or even domestic Delta. It could be, who knows. Or (more likely) they are both virtually identical and the difference is in the marketing because that how business works these days.

I used to work for a Dutch electronics company who discovered that people were paying for their name, not what they made, so they started making all their stuff in Korea, and then China. They also 'outsourced' their customer service and warranty repair, so pretty much, all they are is a nameplate (at least in consumer electronics). Curriously, people eventually figured that out too.

It may be that, as happened in Japan (and I am told has started to happen with Korea), their quality ends up being superior to 'our' quality (being Canadian, that means your quality - after all, these are all imports from my perspective).

But in the meantime, I'm taking a big risk by paying a premium price for a Chinese saw (or whatever) because a US firm put its name on it. The way I see it, I had may as well save the money, or pay the premium for somethign I know is better, or at least I can tell is different.

 

[Poppa]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( 'but Fridge G has double the warranty, and costs a lot more'. )</font>

Nothing wrong with that, people do it all the time. Call it an extended warranty

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( But in the meantime, I'm taking a big risk by paying a premium price for a Chinese saw (or whatever) because a US firm put its name on it. The way I see it, I had may as well save the money, or pay the premium for somethign I know is better, or at least I can tell is different.
)</font>

I don't see how you are taking a BIG RISK. I agree you might be paying more for the same thing. And I agree that possibly that might not be worth it but how is that a big risk? Besides as you said at the top of your post, for that extra money you are getting the longer warranty.



It appears to me that your post does show that this rebadging works in all directions. Soundguy and others have talked about different specs for different badges, you have talked about identical specs for different badges. Seems to me that once again this all comes down to buying what you are comfortable with from a dealer you are comfortable with. Everyone has lemons and everyone has great products. You just have to hope for the best.

Mike

 

[Soundguy]

Funny you mention about same inside guts.

Early this year When my 1 year old sears ( kenmore ) fridge compressor died.. the sear guy came out and had to order the compressor.. it came to my house directly.. and was from maytag.. go figure..

Soundguy

 

[boustany]

<font color="blue"> Nothing wrong with that, people do it all the time. Call it an extended warranty </font>
Well, you presume the better warranty was worth the premium. Usually, when you buy a premium product you think you are getted a better product, not simply paying for an extended warranty. Besides which, extented warranties are with rare exception, rip offs, because consumer goods rarely fail in during the extended warranty period anyway.

So, if I pay a lot more for a fridge, its not because I expect it will last 5 years vs. 3 years for the cheaper one with the worse warranty, its because I expect it will last 17 years, vs the cheaper one lasting 12 years.

When I paid extra for my US built Unisaw, it wasn't because I expected not to have problems with it breaking during the warranty period, its because I expected it would run smooth and straight, have a flat table, excellent alignment, good balance, and so on and so forth.

Where I take the big risk is that I am paying 30 - 50% more for what I think is a better saw, not a saw with a slightly better warranty, which is a big difference. I expect my Unisaw to be at work long after I die, as I would expect of a Grizzly or whatever (because I made the mistake of buying a sears tablesaw, which I am trying to give away, I make no such claim about any power tool I buy from Sears).

The point of the original post was that some vendors have their machine built at the same plant but to better specs - a valid point if you believe in the integrity of the guy marketing the machine.

However, the vendor is clearly only interested in his costs, not quality, otherwise he wouldn't have the product made in the cheapest place in the world. It makes no difference to him whether you got your money's worth, because he's got your money.


That's where the big risk - you have no idea at the time (or even years afterwards) if your extra money was worth it. I know, you're going to say the vendor's reputation being important, The problem is, these days the guy making the decision is primarily interested in his stock options, quarterly results, and so on, not in his company's reputation over the long term.

Once upon a time, Black & Decker made good tools. They came out with Dewalt because their reputation was so bad nobody would buy the few good tools they still made. Dewalt has been sliding to.

Don't even get me started on Maytag. I just gave away a Maytag washer and dryer because I got fed up repairing them. This company seems to define a consumer durable as one which lasts until the warranty is up.

My point is, you want to buy cheap stuff, buy cheap stuff. You want to buy good stuff, buy good stuff. Don't expect that buying expensive stuff made in the cheapest place is going to be good stuff.

 

[Poppa]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( When I paid extra for my US built Unisaw, it wasn't because I expected not to have problems with it breaking during the warranty period, its because I expected it would run smooth and straight, have a flat table, excellent alignment, good balance, and so on and so forth.

Where I take the big risk is that I am paying 30 - 50% more for what I think is a better saw, not a saw with a slightly better warranty, which is a big difference. I expect my Unisaw to be at work long after I die, as I would expect of a Grizzly or whatever (because I made the mistake of buying a sears tablesaw, which I am trying to give away, I make no such claim about any power tool I buy from Sears).

...My point is, you want to buy cheap stuff, buy cheap stuff. You want to buy good stuff, buy good stuff. Don't expect that buying expensive stuff made in the cheapest place is going to be good stuff.
)</font>

Okay, that was a shot to the heart. I purchased an inexpensive Grizzly table saw. Used it for two years, cursed it every single time, replaced it with a Unisaw and have been singing the praises of Delta from then on. I bought the Unisaw for fit, finish and most importantly repeatability. For that I paid six times as much.

Touche

But was it a big risk? I still can't wrap my mind around that idea. For me and the Unisaw the answer was no. If the fit, finish or repeatability had not been there at the outset, I would have crated it up and taken it right back to the vendor. I've had it for seven years and am still pleased with it. But what about ten years from now? Like you I believe that that saw should outlive me. But what if it doesn't is that a big risk?

Yes, it is a risk but I guess in the end we are just arguing semantics. A big risk for me is climbing on a jet to Iraq, or a space shuttle or running into a burning building. Buying a saw or a car or a tractor is a risk and always will be but doesn't fall into the "Big" category for me.

Please tell me you are happy /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif with your Unisaw otherwise I will lose all hope. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I actually had to move mine to the side of the shop to make room for the new tractor and I feel guilty. Actually apologized to it as I polished the table. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Mike

 

[boustany]

I'm verry happy with my Unisaw & have recommended it to others.

Big risk is a matter of opinion. I do fairly well for myself and can afford to make mistakes like wasting my money on Maytag appliances, buying a quonset hut, and so on.

So, most things are not a big risk in absolute terms, I guess. But they way I think about money (and I think a lot about money because its what I do for a living) 30% is 30%. Wasting 30% on a $100 tool thats worth $70 is more or less the same as wasting 30% on a $30,000 car. Its still a wast of 30%.

But I get really angry with myself for getting suckered into paying extra for things that aren't worth the extra. I don't regret paying extra for something that's worth extra. So I buy Kubota instead of Toro, Honda instead of Briggs & Stratton, and so on.

Since you mentioned extended warrantees, I remember when I bought my truck that Toyota wanted $2,700 (on a $30,000 vehicle), for an extended warrantee, say 10%. Now, in 20 years, I've never had a repair bill for over $1,000 and everything in the vehicle which is expensive to repair (engine, tranny, etc.) was covered under the 5 year standard warrantee.

For the extended warrantee to make sense for me, there would have to be a 20% chance I'd have at least a $15,000 repair bill on stuff not covered by the standard warranty, or a 50% chance of a $5,400 repair bill, or a 100% chance of a $2,700 repair bill, etc., and all this on a vehicle I was buying because of its reliability record.

Thats a clear case where I would have felt like an idiot if I have paid the money. Since I was able to pay cash for the vehicle, it would not have been a big risk for me if I'd bought the extended warrantee. I still would have kicked myself for years if i had, though.

 

[Richard]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Besides which, extented warranties are with rare exception, rip offs, because consumer goods rarely fail in during the extended warranty period anyway.
)</font>


2 comments and either one, really directed to you Boustany /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


I RARELY buy extended warranty. Built new house, the heating/air guy offered it to me... I by chance took it on both units. 10 year warranty. Been in house 5 years. Upshot, they've been out every year come along springtime to fix my upstairs unit. NOW that we have a trend, they think the coil has a slowwwwwwwwww leak.....

Second, along lines of this thread. My old college roommate use to work for Sherwin Williams as an internal auditer. As per him... All, as in "ALL" of their paint comes down the same assembly line and is put into blank cans & put on shelves. When company "X" calls and says they need some Sherwin Williams paint, they grab the cans & put S/W labels on them. When compay "Y" calls & they need some Dutchboy paint, (not sure if that's a S/W brand however... just for illustration) they grab DUTCHBOY labels & put on can... Same paint in all cans for all vendors with different prices & warranties just like mentioned above. Only thing that is different is the box the labels come from.

Upshot... if it's a brand made by S/W yet is the "low cost" version, the liquid in the can is identical to the "high cost" version, just a shorter warranty.

 

[Richard]

and NEITHER one

/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Poppa]

Well, I normally don't buy the extended warranty because I too feel like it is Probably a waste of money. Only did one time, on my new 91 Toyota 4runner. Bought the vehicle FOR the reliability but still bought the extended warranty anyway. That car went through three head gaskets in the seven years we owned it. The first one came at 60 thousand, the second at 70 and the third and 85. Each one alone would have paid for the extended warranty so, yeah, Most of the time they are a rip-off but not always. After the 4runner though I did start to believe they were a curse /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I know that was off topic but your reply about extended warranties and Toyota made me smile. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Richard, one question. If all the paint is exactly the same what if you don't want white? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mike

 

[boustany]

Hey, its like a lottery ticket, sometimes extended warrantees pay off, even if they shouldn't.

I embarrases me to say that one of my first Maytag purchases was a wall oven & I bought the extended warrantee (I'm better now). Every year they had to come and replace the hinges because they wore out. Can you imagine?

In general, consumer products have a failure rate called a 'bath tub curve' (looks like a lengthwise cross section of a bath tub). A high fairlure rate early on (usually the warranty period covers the vast majority of failures), then very low failure rate for several years (this is where the retailer makes money off the extended warranty because there are usually very few failures for 5 or more years), then a growing failure rate (i.e. that starts well after the extended warranty lapses, and these failure are usually caused by wear and tear and not usually covered.

Of course failures do occur throughout the period. Good if you got the warranty, but a sign of grievous problems once the warranty expires because the rate will usually grow significiantly, especially if the root cause is a design problem (my stove & probably your A/C).

The paint story is a familiar one. A guy I went to school with was a production guy at Sico (a big Canadian company) and told me the same thing happened there. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'd like to know the odds of collecting a warranty claim for paint, especially since almost all the cost is the labour (this warranty does not cover labour for removal & repainting ...)

 

[Golfgar4]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Upshot... if it's a brand made by S/W yet is the "low cost" version, the liquid in the can is identical to the "high cost" version, just a shorter warranty. )</font>

Boy, can I relate to that! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I was in the process of re-painting all of our patio furniture. Because my brother-in-law is the plant manager for the Ace Hardware paint plant outside of Chicago, you know what kind of paint I was TOLD to use by the wife. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Well, I was using Ace's version of Rustoleum out of a spray can. I ran out with two chairs left to paint. So I run down to the neighborhood Ace store and find that they don't have any of the kind of paint I was using. I didn't want to take a chance on buying another brand (Rustoleum actually) that wouldn't match, so I drove to the other Ace store on the other side of town. They didn't have any either. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif Since the next choice was to go out of town, I decided to take my chances and buy the Rustoleum. After using it, I didn't see any difference in the final results.

The next day at our party, I mentioned this to my brother-in-law. He started laughing and said that both paints were exactly the same paint!

I didn't laugh! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[BillyP]

Since extended warranties have been brought up, I'll add to it.

My brother bought a new Ford 4x4 back in 87, I think. I just happened to be with him when he went to sign the papers. The salesman done everything possible to sell my brother an extended warranty ($800+). My brother kept telling him no but the salesman wouldn't take no for an answer. Finally the salesman said "If you don't use this warranty, we will refund your money". My brother took him up on his offer and off we went.

My brother never did use the warranty. Although he had the opportunity to do so, he fixed it himself. Just little nit picking stuff but if he had used their warranty he wouldn't have got his money back. After the warranty period was up, he got his money back /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

An extended warranty can be a selling point though. Especially on vehicles.

 

[keeney]

I actually collected on the Sherwinn Williams Warranty.

10 years after my new house was built and painted, it looked like junk. I looked in the basement and found a can of the left-over paint and noticed it had a 20-year non-pro-rated warranty, so I decided what the heck, maybe they will give me some free paint.

At first, they tried to claim that it was not applied correctly. I told them it was "professionally" applied by the painters on new materials when the house was built. They said "well that explains it". I said "well, unless you can tell me what they did wrong, I expect you to honor your warranty".

They eventually relented and provide materials to re-paint the house. Since I was doing it myself, I was happy enough with that.

- Rick