Regeneration

[GregP27]

Let's look at that claim.

1) GM makes a 2.0 L diesel rated at 151 HP @ 4,000 rpm. That means 198 ft-lbs of torque. It can rev as high as 4,000 rpm.
2) Kioti makes a 1.8+L diesel rated at 45 HP @ 2,000 rpm. That means 118 ft-lbs of torque. Rated rpm is 2,600.

So, the Kioti makes about 60% of the torque of the automotive diesel at 2,000 rpm and lasts for an estimated 20,000 hours before major wearout. The GM car won't last anywhere NEAR that long in hours, and is used completely differently for a purpose not exactly connected with compact utility tractor use.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. Interesting, but unrelated, except by being diesels.

If you out the GM diesel into a Kioti tractor, it would wear out VERY quickly because it is NOT constructed for commercial industrial use.

 

[xcgreene]

Let's look at that claim.

1) GM makes a 2.0 L diesel rated at 151 HP @ 4,000 rpm. That means 198 ft-lbs of torque. It can rev as high as 4,000 rpm.
2) Kioti makes a 1.8+L diesel rated at 45 HP @ 2,000 rpm. That means 118 ft-lbs of torque. Rated rpm is 2,600.

So, the Kioti makes about 60% of the torque of the automotive diesel at 2,000 rpm and lasts for an estimated 20,000 hours before major wearout. The GM car won't last anywhere NEAR that long in hours, and is used completely differently for a purpose not exactly connected with compact utility tractor use.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. Interesting, but unrelated, except by being diesels.

If you out the GM diesel into a Kioti tractor, it would wear out VERY quickly because it is NOT constructed for commercial industrial use.

Exactly This

 

[Turbys_1700]

My New Holland Workmaster 50 with DOC produces zero smoke. If you compare the HP output of the DOC engines to pre-DOC engines their HP and torque output is equivalent. The torque rise is at 1800 RPM's on the FPT. Comparing HP output of a comparable automobile versus tractor engine is not relevant. Their intended purposes are not similar.

r22

 

[DieselBound]

Has anyone ever managed to even get close to 20k hours on a CUT? While an engine might be able to make it here I'd think that the rest of the tractor would probably be dead a fair amount of time before then.

The comparison between the Kioti and GM engines is missing the RPM number for when that engine puts out its peak torque.

Just looked it up (reference here) and the 2014 engine put out 258 ft-lbs @ 2,000 RPM (my VW ALH engines, modified, are putting out similar numbers, though HP is closer to 120hp).

 

[Btown]

Let's look at that claim.

1) GM makes a 2.0 L diesel rated at 151 HP @ 4,000 rpm. That means 198 ft-lbs of torque. It can rev as high as 4,000 rpm.
2) Kioti makes a 1.8+L diesel rated at 45 HP @ 2,000 rpm. That means 118 ft-lbs of torque. Rated rpm is 2,600.

So, the Kioti makes about 60% of the torque of the automotive diesel at 2,000 rpm and lasts for an estimated 20,000 hours before major wearout. The GM car won't last anywhere NEAR that long in hours, and is used completely differently for a purpose not exactly connected with compact utility tractor use.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. Interesting, but unrelated, except by being diesels.

If you out the GM diesel into a Kioti tractor, it would wear out VERY quickly because it is NOT constructed for commercial industrial use.

I have over 3000 hours on my 2015 explorer newer engines even gas ones will last a long time. We have had vehicles with 6000 plus hours on the original gas engine. The 2.0 engine that Chevy makes will outlast the vehicle it is in. But most people will get rid of the vehicle including a perfectly good engine. My 2001 Superduty has 84K on it , but up here in the rust belt it will not last unless you hose it down with oil or something every year.

 

[xcgreene]

I have over 3000 hours on my 2015 explorer newer engines even gas ones will last a long time. We have had vehicles with 6000 plus hours on the original gas engine. The 2.0 engine that Chevy makes will outlast the vehicle it is in. But most people will get rid of the vehicle including a perfectly good engine. My 2001 Superduty has 84K on it , but up here in the rust belt it will not last unless you hose it down with oil or something every year.

Typically, someones daily driver will run 40-50 miles for every hour the engine is online. Your 2015 explorer must have around 135,000 miles on it already, unless you are using it in an unusual way. You mentioned having a vehicle run 6000 hours on the original gas engine, which should ballpark around 270,000 miles. I've experienced similar.

Most tractor diesels can expect to go 8000 hours before overhaul without issue. I know there are many claims about 20,000 hrs before overhauls, but I find these numbers are only true for much larger diesels beyond what we are discussing here. 8000 hours would equate to roughly 360,000 miles (again, I know, Apples to Oranges, but this is entertaining). That's a lot for a car engine. That's a lot for a timing belt/chain, vs a tractors gear driven timing. Vehicle engines wish to be light to help increase vehicle mpg, making them structurally weaker though certainly sufficient. Tractor engines want to be heavy, as weight is valuable to a tractor, also making them stronger, with heavier cranks, rods, blocks, heads. Much of this is aluminium within road going vehicles, which is not as durable. That Powerstroke is a V8 diesel, which has many more moving parts to wear out than an inline 4 or 6 tractor diesel, and though the power stroke has no aluminium, the tractor engine will still be heavier. Many tractor engines have replaceable liners, where the powerstroke, or any other road going vehicle does not. Though an argument can be made about newer tractors and the lack of replaceable liners. I would also put semi trucks within the same category as a tractor, being a heavier equipment.

Btown, I do agree that newer gas engines today are better than ever. Just not better than one might find in a tractor, for longevity.

I don't mean to continue the sidetrack of this thread, but I do like this discussion and find it interesting to talk about.

 

[GregP27]

Torque, RPM, and HP are directly related. Easy calculation. HP = (Torque x RPM) / 5,252. Simple

HP is 550 ft-lbs.sec HP, torque is ft-lbs, rpm is revolution per minute. Easy and direct. HP is calculated from measured torque on a dyno. The two curves rather obviously cross each other at 5,252 RPM. Below that speed torque is higher; after that speed HP is higher.

So, a 2,000 rpm diesel is a torque monster, while an 8,500 rpm car engine is a HP monster.

No mystery. The highest rated diesel in the world is the Wartzilla.Sulzer RTA-96C with 14 cylinders. It has a displacement of 111,063 cubic inches or 1,820 litres. It makes 108,920 BHP (80,080 kW) and 5,608,310 ft-lbs (7,603,850 N-m) of torque. The rpm range is 22 - 120 rpm ... It is 3-stories tall!



Note the man on levels 2 and 3. Big engine. Will NOT fit into your basic Kioti NX. If it did, you'd have NO traction at ANY rpm, and very likely could never get on actual dirt.

 

[kantuckid]

At what models did Kioti go to DPF? I'm currently looking at ways to answer my need for a loader tractor-my DK40 is not and given loader cost I can switch tractors and go to a lower hours tractor with no DPF plus gain the loader I need. Like most children my age (73) I've watched you tube videos and scrounged the web deeply looking at tractors. I watched a viseo from a TN Mahindra dealer where the guy mentions the cost to maintain those systems on DPF tractors as a sales point for his red ones. We are talking several $thousand dollars here for those of you that say you've had "X" number of trouble free hours...
I'm leaning toward the Mahindra 2538 or some other models in the 35-50HP group. Every Kioti I've found I could easily beat with a Mahindra for price point and features match up well too. My nearest Kioti quoted me $8k more for a tractor similar to the Mahindra mentioned here @ $20k new with loader. Used the Kioti market is way overpriced too.

 

[Btown]

At what models did Kioti go to DPF? I'm currently looking at ways to answer my need for a loader tractor-my DK40 is not and given loader cost I can switch tractors and go to a lower hours tractor with no DPF plus gain the loader I need. Like most children my age (73) I've watched you tube videos and scrounged the web deeply looking at tractors. I watched a viseo from a TN Mahindra dealer where the guy mentions the cost to maintain those systems on DPF tractors as a sales point for his red ones. We are talking several $thousand dollars here for those of you that say you've had "X" number of trouble free hours...
I'm leaning toward the Mahindra 2538 or some other models in the 35-50HP group. Every Kioti I've found I could easily beat with a Mahindra for price point and features match up well too. My nearest Kioti quoted me $8k more for a tractor similar to the Mahindra mentioned here @ $20k new with loader. Used the Kioti market is way overpriced too.

Ask the Mahindra guy how much for an EGR and new DOC as this is what Mahindra uses to gain compliance. They will fail at some point probably with thousands and thousand of hours on them just like a DPF is designed to last for thousands and thousands of hours. Which one will cost less in the long run? We will have to wait and see.

 

[kantuckid]

Google took me to Btown's participation in a "Mahindra 2015" diesel engine compliance discussion, which ends in the reality of "no free lunch" when it comes to cleaning up an engine. I'll be long gone before my next tractor likely needs the pricey parts mentioned on either brand. FWIW, I used to build wrecked cars as a sideline and built my wife a "2000 beetle TDI" to commute. We ran it nearly a 100k then sold it to a friend who ran it nearly 300k. I could take off for my native KS from KY and almost make it there on one tank of red juice. I spent zero on emissions parts, the next guy spent more but not a bunch overall. I'm a gearhead but honestly loved the car and it's 90hp torque.
My next car may be a DEF diesel that's coming out early 2018 with an engine already in use. When I got on that kick a few months back the tightwad in me googled make yer own DEF and I ended up on ebay pricing laboratory urea powder, then decided it wasn't worth the effort to mix my own "pee"?
The Mahindra price point for the whole tractor still seems to be the main lure for me, aside from the features overall.
If I had all choices laid before me in an economical way, I'd just stick a loader on my Kioti. It's been a dandy tractor.

I'm still asking: When did Kioti go to DPF?

 

[xcgreene]

Google took me to Btown's participation in a "Mahindra 2015" diesel engine compliance discussion, which ends in the reality of "no free lunch" when it comes to cleaning up an engine. I'll be long gone before my next tractor likely needs the pricey parts mentioned on either brand. FWIW, I used to build wrecked cars as a sideline and built my wife a "2000 beetle TDI" to commute. We ran it nearly a 100k then sold it to a friend who ran it nearly 300k. I could take off for my native KS from KY and almost make it there on one tank of red juice. I spent zero on emissions parts, the next guy spent more but not a bunch overall. I'm a gearhead but honestly loved the car and it's 90hp torque.
My next car may be a DEF diesel that's coming out early 2018 with an engine already in use. When I got on that kick a few months back the tightwad in me googled make yer own DEF and I ended up on ebay pricing laboratory urea powder, then decided it wasn't worth the effort to mix my own "pee"?
The Mahindra price point for the whole tractor still seems to be the main lure for me, aside from the features overall.
If I had all choices laid before me in an economical way, I'd just stick a loader on my Kioti. It's been a dandy tractor.

I'm still asking: When did Kioti go to DPF?

the DKse tractors were the last of the old, as the NX took over and had DPF. The NX was available at the same time the DKse tractors for a minute or two. Then the DK10 series tractors were introduced.

 

[kantuckid]

Thanks, Kioti's press release i just read says 2013 is the release year to meet Tier 4 regs.

 

[xcgreene]

Thanks, Kioti's press release i just read says 2013 is the release year to meet Tier 4 regs.

though my 2014 dk45se did not have regen. I'm not sure what 2015 entailed as far as availability

 

[Btown]

Thanks, Kioti's press release i just read says 2013 is the release year to meet Tier 4 regs.

That might have been Interim tier 4. I want to say around 14 or 15 is when manufacturers switched over. I think Eric had one of the first NX 60 hp machines. His thread starts on 6-24-2016.

 

[kantuckid]

I looked at an ad for a 2013DK40SE that did not have tier 4.
In a somewhat related discussion of solutions to cleaning up diesel engines there's been several efforts to bring clean engines into the USA in small trucks & cars in recent years. I have been looking at a diesel engine SUV lately. M-B canned there effort for now with their new small SUV as the time to clear the guvment in USA would have resulted in thousands of cars not sold while the clearance process moved along. BMW will be selling it's X3 diesel sooner, like next spring-I read they sold over 400,000 of them (gas) out of the SC plant.
Mazda has their diesel coming soon in the new CX-5 SUV. The candy apple red one like on TV ads lately. I read an article that related how they tried to bring the non DEF engines ( sold elsewhere BTW) under USA approval and finally gave up, thus the version we get will be a DEF engine.
I talked to a former Mahindra dealer Saturday-he sold them for 7 years and quit the brand. He sells Kioti was my purpose in talking to him. he said the parts could be very slow and engine problems with certain engines. He went on to say the company was great on marketing but lax on parts availabilty. Says they have been pestering him to stay with them but he's not willing.
A clean engine is nice but I do wonder what the down the road parts cost will be for the Kioti regen parts?

 

[Btown]

Chevy/GMC has a midsize diesel SUV for 2018. 1.6L AWD rated 38 mpg highway. Odds are you will probably spend $0 on emission stuff for your tractor. It should be good for 3000-4000 hours. But there will be cases of premature failures.

 

[kantuckid]

I don't see the cat convertors going bad very soon but some diesels use pricey EGR's. I've seen them bad before 100k on road vehicles. The several Kioti dealers I have asked say the tractors haven't shown emissions parts needs as yet.

 

[finn1]

The diesel option is back in the Jeep lineup in a couple of models for next year.

The German manufacturers dropped it because of the VW criminal cheating on emissions certification.

Remember, the Germans all used variations of the Bosch cheater software.

 

[kantuckid]

The diesel option is back in the Jeep lineup in a couple of models for next year.

The German manufacturers dropped it because of the VW criminal cheating on emissions certification.

Remember, the Germans all used variations of the Bosch cheater software.

What? While I'm not the expert I do read about car stuff and I was and am looking toward my next SUV purchase- not just a tractor.
Several German mfg.'s sell diesels now, both in the USA and certainly an even broader number of engine choices abroad.
M-B killed it for now as the backlash from the VW fiasco made it certain the USA certification process would slow down the intro on a car they were already selling in Europe and ready to ship to USA in Gas versions. Their company estimates of the USA process made that car unavailable in diesel here but not other brands. BMW has had them here in cars other than the one I'm interested in for some time, M-B too. VW's cars that have the criminal software are said to be coming up for retail sale as they are revamped. That whole senario is more complicated than whats in the news.
I remember seeing a diesel option in Jeep SUV's last year on their own website? It might have been a Euro diesel, I forget now. All Jeeps are pricey!
perhaps you meant the Jeep-Jeep? They are not of interest to me, so not what I looked about.
I guess we are back to tractors & regeneration...

 

[buickanddeere]

If the diesel is properly operated at full power, at full load for hours at a time. Regen will be a rare event .