CT_Tree_Guy
Platinum Member
Jerry:
Respectfully, I disagree with you on practically everything you just said. I hope that doesn't mean that you and I will not ultimately end up on a very friendly basis, and will be able to continue to discuss things freely and openly, with the ultimate goal being the maximization of the utility and productivity of all of our respective machines. Again, I feel that the main purpose of this site is to do just that, NOT to get into turf wars and pissing contests, which I am loathe to do.
That said, I would like to address the content of your last post, which I must admit I have allowed to instill in me a good measure of consternation, and a little bit of good old-fashioned anger that I will do my best to keep on a leash. I detected the liberal use of the word "They" in your post, and take that as a sign that there might be a little anger brewing on your end as well. This type of confrontation is what I like to avoid at all costs, as I feel that it is a distraction from the exchange of ideas and the optimization of everyone's tractoring experience, which again is what I think this site is all about. I have no agenda other than trying to achieve that end in a logical, scientific manner that takes into acount all of the constraints which we all find ourselves operating under. Among those constraints is a lack of good, hard, solid, reliable, sensible and useable information, free of agenda, bias, and emotion.
That said, let me say that I take extreme exception to your comment that I am <font color="blue"> trying to make this all harder than it needs to be. </font> I did not wake up this morning and say "Let's see, whose life can I make more difficult today?" That is the clear implication of your statement. If you had simply said "You're making this more difficult than it needs to be", without the "trying" part, then I would have merely objected to your categorical assumption that I am in fact making it more difficult than it needs to be. It is as difficult, or as simple, as it is. I can't think of any logical way to determine how difficult this needs to be, nor do I see the relevance of trying to determine how difficult it needs to be. It is a question that lends itself to rational, scientific scutiny and I think that time spent on trying to determine how difficult it needs to be takes valuable time away from the task at hand.
I know that <font color="blue"> the vast majority of new owners is the "They" that [you were] referring to. </font> I was a new owner when I was trying to figure this all out. I knew next to nothing about tractors before I came here two years ago. I had barely ever sat on a tractor. I didn't know that there were different categories of three-point hitches. I didn't know how a PTO worked, or what a GST tranny was, or why you would or wouldn't want to fill your tires. I didn't know how to operate a loader, what a box blade was, or a backhoe sub-frame, or what the differences were between ags and R4's. Lastly, I didn't know what remotes were. Not even remotely.
We're all "new users" at some point. That doesn't mean that we can't try to make informed decisions with a little help from our friends, and incorporate that into our tractor buying and equipping choices, despite what a dealer might be telling us. I'm just trying to help people so that they don't have to re-invent the wheel, or do something just because that's what their granpappy's did, and their granpappy's before 'em. AT&T was slow to get into the telephone business because they didn't see the need for people to talk to one another in real time. Everyone was accustomed to the telegraph, and it worked just fine, thank you. Now we look at communications differently. Maybe we can look at hydraulics differently too.
If anything, one of the most important lessons to be learned here is that dealers don't know everything, nor should they be expected to be. There is a lot of stuff going on in and on tractors, and no one can know it all. Enter TBN. Between everyone here, we practically do know it all. 99% of it anyway. Over twenty thousand members, and 782,840 posts to date. That's a lot of wasted keystrokes if all we have to do is have our dealers do all of our thinking for us. I want to say it again - "THEY" was ME, when I was in THEIR position. And this "THEY" wanted as much information as I could get. And in so many areas, I'm still a "THEY". Frankly, the whole idea of putting people into little boxes like that is somewhat disturbing and irrelevant to me, and reminds me of racial stereotypes.
As to <font color="blue"> "They" as a group order the tractor already setup. "They" as a group would much rather let the dealer take care of all the hydraulics before the tractor is delivered. </font> That's precisely what I would like to change. I firmly believe that the time of purchase is "THE" time for "THEM" to get the tractor outfitted the best way it possibly can, and this includes the hydraulics, maybe more than anything. Remotes are one of the most expensive options you can get on the tractor itself, aside from cabs. If remotes were included as standard equipment at no charge, I'd be less inclined to urge people to look at alternatives. I'd probably still be saying the exact same things about the clear advantages of operating electrical multi-axis joysticks as opposed to pulling individual levers, but I might not be as vocal about it if it represented a significant added expense to the tractor purchase, but the price difference, if any, is not that much more. Remotes aren't cheap, especially for what you really get. Remember, a remote is just a hand-operated valve with with an output port and a return port. Nothing magic, it's a valve with ports. Hydraulic solenoids aren't cheap either, but LOOK what you get. Indisputable (IMHO) increased functionality for as long as you own your tractor. Say what you will about solenoids and joysticks, but I don't think that anyone could persuasively make a case that remote levers are more convenient or productive. The benefits to electrical hydraulic solenoids and electrical controls are numerous. The solenoids can be mounted almost anywhere. They are not tractor-brand specific. You can shop around for a good price, or find a bank of them on EBay maybe. When in doubt, just get a bank of 12-volt Vickers with 1/2" ports, with 1,2,3 or 4 solenoids stacked together. Then get any kind of joystick or other type of controller under the sun to send current to it. The controllers just send a 12-volt signal to the solenoid valve to tell it what to do. And forget the dealer altogether when it comes to this stuff anyway. "THEY" can just say, "no thanks, I don't require any remotes", and do what I did. Go to a tractor guy who's up on this stuff, one who knows exactly what you're talking about, and will install it on your tractor and have you going down the road faster than "THEY" can say "Man, check this out! This is NICE!!!"
Of course, the sale of brand-specific remotes probably represents a fairly significant amount of income to a dealer, so I can see how one might hesitate to see "THEM" do this, but maybe "HE" will have no choice but to give "THEM" what they want, once "THEY" realize that they have a much more desirable alternative.
As to <font color="blue">"They" as a group are confused by hydraulics. That is why "They" as a group are better off just letting the tractor be built with the factory valves. </font> I don't want "THEM" to be confused about hydraulics, and maybe "THEY" are getting less confused all the time as they read this. For obvious reasons, I disagree with the blanket statement that "THEY" are better off just letting the tractor be "built" with factory hydraulics. Let's not confuse "THEM" any more than "THEY" already might be. The remotes need not be put on at the factory, and I dare say in most cases are not. Rather, it is my understanding that remotes are usually added at the dealership. If someone wanted to buy a tractor without remotes, would you say "sorry, they're already equipped with them?" Even if they were, which they're usually not (hardly ever are?), I would think that you as a dealer would do your best to provide them with a tractor that is equipped (or not equipped) the way "THEY" want it. "THEY" do have the ability to find things out for themselves, and get what "THEY" want, once "THEY" know what "THEY" want.
<font color="blue"> Then "They" will have a durable system that will last the life of the tractor that any dealer should be able to service should the need arise. </font> My setup has 560 hours on it and has never so much as hiccupped. If and when it does, my dealer will have nothing to do with it. I'll call Bob and say "hey, my joystick's on the fritz", and he'll order me a part, probably an electrical contact, that might cost ten bucks plus shipping. And the Vickers solenoids? Vickers might have a different opinion from yours about the longevity of their industrial hydraulic products. It's an open question as to which will crap out first - their solenoids, or Kubota's remotes. And if the solenoid finally needs repair, has the cost of repairing it already been more than offset, probably ten times over, by the increased productivity that "THEY" have enjoyed for all those years? I would answer that with a resounding "yes".
Picture this - a box blade, equipped with hydraulic scarifiers, on a 3ph with top and tilt. As the tractor moves along, the operator has his hand on a two-axis electrical joystick mounted conveniently atop the three unused remote slots to the right of his seat. The joystick, just like mine, controls 3 hydraulic cylinders. Push the joystick to the right, and the box blade pitches to the right by sending an electric current to the solenoid, which dutifully supplies hydraulic pressure to the "tilt" cylinder, and the box blade tilts to the right. Push it to the left, and the box blade tilts to the left. Pull back on it, and the box blade goes down. Push it forward, and the box blade comes up. Push one way on the rocker switch on top of the joystick, and the scarifiers go down. Rock the switch the other way, and the scarifiers rise. The operator is able to quicky react to different ground conditions, adjust the height and angle of the box blade with the flick of his wrist, move the scarifiers, all without taking his hand off the joystick. Sounds pretty slick to me. And this is just one attachment. Let your imagination work on the possibilities. This technology is sitting on my tractor right now, and I love it. If anyone out there thinks "THEY" might love it too, or wants any more information, feel free to PM me, or email me. My email is included in my first post. I'll give you make, model, retail price and part number of anything you want.
Finally: <font color="blue"> And YES any dealer should be able to service any type of valves that are on any of their equipment, BUT some dealers don't seem to be up on even simple hydraulics the way that they should be. </font>
As I said, I respectfully disagree with you on almost everything you said. Here is where I agree with you.
Respectfully, I disagree with you on practically everything you just said. I hope that doesn't mean that you and I will not ultimately end up on a very friendly basis, and will be able to continue to discuss things freely and openly, with the ultimate goal being the maximization of the utility and productivity of all of our respective machines. Again, I feel that the main purpose of this site is to do just that, NOT to get into turf wars and pissing contests, which I am loathe to do.
That said, I would like to address the content of your last post, which I must admit I have allowed to instill in me a good measure of consternation, and a little bit of good old-fashioned anger that I will do my best to keep on a leash. I detected the liberal use of the word "They" in your post, and take that as a sign that there might be a little anger brewing on your end as well. This type of confrontation is what I like to avoid at all costs, as I feel that it is a distraction from the exchange of ideas and the optimization of everyone's tractoring experience, which again is what I think this site is all about. I have no agenda other than trying to achieve that end in a logical, scientific manner that takes into acount all of the constraints which we all find ourselves operating under. Among those constraints is a lack of good, hard, solid, reliable, sensible and useable information, free of agenda, bias, and emotion.
That said, let me say that I take extreme exception to your comment that I am <font color="blue"> trying to make this all harder than it needs to be. </font> I did not wake up this morning and say "Let's see, whose life can I make more difficult today?" That is the clear implication of your statement. If you had simply said "You're making this more difficult than it needs to be", without the "trying" part, then I would have merely objected to your categorical assumption that I am in fact making it more difficult than it needs to be. It is as difficult, or as simple, as it is. I can't think of any logical way to determine how difficult this needs to be, nor do I see the relevance of trying to determine how difficult it needs to be. It is a question that lends itself to rational, scientific scutiny and I think that time spent on trying to determine how difficult it needs to be takes valuable time away from the task at hand.
I know that <font color="blue"> the vast majority of new owners is the "They" that [you were] referring to. </font> I was a new owner when I was trying to figure this all out. I knew next to nothing about tractors before I came here two years ago. I had barely ever sat on a tractor. I didn't know that there were different categories of three-point hitches. I didn't know how a PTO worked, or what a GST tranny was, or why you would or wouldn't want to fill your tires. I didn't know how to operate a loader, what a box blade was, or a backhoe sub-frame, or what the differences were between ags and R4's. Lastly, I didn't know what remotes were. Not even remotely.
We're all "new users" at some point. That doesn't mean that we can't try to make informed decisions with a little help from our friends, and incorporate that into our tractor buying and equipping choices, despite what a dealer might be telling us. I'm just trying to help people so that they don't have to re-invent the wheel, or do something just because that's what their granpappy's did, and their granpappy's before 'em. AT&T was slow to get into the telephone business because they didn't see the need for people to talk to one another in real time. Everyone was accustomed to the telegraph, and it worked just fine, thank you. Now we look at communications differently. Maybe we can look at hydraulics differently too.
If anything, one of the most important lessons to be learned here is that dealers don't know everything, nor should they be expected to be. There is a lot of stuff going on in and on tractors, and no one can know it all. Enter TBN. Between everyone here, we practically do know it all. 99% of it anyway. Over twenty thousand members, and 782,840 posts to date. That's a lot of wasted keystrokes if all we have to do is have our dealers do all of our thinking for us. I want to say it again - "THEY" was ME, when I was in THEIR position. And this "THEY" wanted as much information as I could get. And in so many areas, I'm still a "THEY". Frankly, the whole idea of putting people into little boxes like that is somewhat disturbing and irrelevant to me, and reminds me of racial stereotypes.
As to <font color="blue"> "They" as a group order the tractor already setup. "They" as a group would much rather let the dealer take care of all the hydraulics before the tractor is delivered. </font> That's precisely what I would like to change. I firmly believe that the time of purchase is "THE" time for "THEM" to get the tractor outfitted the best way it possibly can, and this includes the hydraulics, maybe more than anything. Remotes are one of the most expensive options you can get on the tractor itself, aside from cabs. If remotes were included as standard equipment at no charge, I'd be less inclined to urge people to look at alternatives. I'd probably still be saying the exact same things about the clear advantages of operating electrical multi-axis joysticks as opposed to pulling individual levers, but I might not be as vocal about it if it represented a significant added expense to the tractor purchase, but the price difference, if any, is not that much more. Remotes aren't cheap, especially for what you really get. Remember, a remote is just a hand-operated valve with with an output port and a return port. Nothing magic, it's a valve with ports. Hydraulic solenoids aren't cheap either, but LOOK what you get. Indisputable (IMHO) increased functionality for as long as you own your tractor. Say what you will about solenoids and joysticks, but I don't think that anyone could persuasively make a case that remote levers are more convenient or productive. The benefits to electrical hydraulic solenoids and electrical controls are numerous. The solenoids can be mounted almost anywhere. They are not tractor-brand specific. You can shop around for a good price, or find a bank of them on EBay maybe. When in doubt, just get a bank of 12-volt Vickers with 1/2" ports, with 1,2,3 or 4 solenoids stacked together. Then get any kind of joystick or other type of controller under the sun to send current to it. The controllers just send a 12-volt signal to the solenoid valve to tell it what to do. And forget the dealer altogether when it comes to this stuff anyway. "THEY" can just say, "no thanks, I don't require any remotes", and do what I did. Go to a tractor guy who's up on this stuff, one who knows exactly what you're talking about, and will install it on your tractor and have you going down the road faster than "THEY" can say "Man, check this out! This is NICE!!!"
Of course, the sale of brand-specific remotes probably represents a fairly significant amount of income to a dealer, so I can see how one might hesitate to see "THEM" do this, but maybe "HE" will have no choice but to give "THEM" what they want, once "THEY" realize that they have a much more desirable alternative.
As to <font color="blue">"They" as a group are confused by hydraulics. That is why "They" as a group are better off just letting the tractor be built with the factory valves. </font> I don't want "THEM" to be confused about hydraulics, and maybe "THEY" are getting less confused all the time as they read this. For obvious reasons, I disagree with the blanket statement that "THEY" are better off just letting the tractor be "built" with factory hydraulics. Let's not confuse "THEM" any more than "THEY" already might be. The remotes need not be put on at the factory, and I dare say in most cases are not. Rather, it is my understanding that remotes are usually added at the dealership. If someone wanted to buy a tractor without remotes, would you say "sorry, they're already equipped with them?" Even if they were, which they're usually not (hardly ever are?), I would think that you as a dealer would do your best to provide them with a tractor that is equipped (or not equipped) the way "THEY" want it. "THEY" do have the ability to find things out for themselves, and get what "THEY" want, once "THEY" know what "THEY" want.
<font color="blue"> Then "They" will have a durable system that will last the life of the tractor that any dealer should be able to service should the need arise. </font> My setup has 560 hours on it and has never so much as hiccupped. If and when it does, my dealer will have nothing to do with it. I'll call Bob and say "hey, my joystick's on the fritz", and he'll order me a part, probably an electrical contact, that might cost ten bucks plus shipping. And the Vickers solenoids? Vickers might have a different opinion from yours about the longevity of their industrial hydraulic products. It's an open question as to which will crap out first - their solenoids, or Kubota's remotes. And if the solenoid finally needs repair, has the cost of repairing it already been more than offset, probably ten times over, by the increased productivity that "THEY" have enjoyed for all those years? I would answer that with a resounding "yes".
Picture this - a box blade, equipped with hydraulic scarifiers, on a 3ph with top and tilt. As the tractor moves along, the operator has his hand on a two-axis electrical joystick mounted conveniently atop the three unused remote slots to the right of his seat. The joystick, just like mine, controls 3 hydraulic cylinders. Push the joystick to the right, and the box blade pitches to the right by sending an electric current to the solenoid, which dutifully supplies hydraulic pressure to the "tilt" cylinder, and the box blade tilts to the right. Push it to the left, and the box blade tilts to the left. Pull back on it, and the box blade goes down. Push it forward, and the box blade comes up. Push one way on the rocker switch on top of the joystick, and the scarifiers go down. Rock the switch the other way, and the scarifiers rise. The operator is able to quicky react to different ground conditions, adjust the height and angle of the box blade with the flick of his wrist, move the scarifiers, all without taking his hand off the joystick. Sounds pretty slick to me. And this is just one attachment. Let your imagination work on the possibilities. This technology is sitting on my tractor right now, and I love it. If anyone out there thinks "THEY" might love it too, or wants any more information, feel free to PM me, or email me. My email is included in my first post. I'll give you make, model, retail price and part number of anything you want.
Finally: <font color="blue"> And YES any dealer should be able to service any type of valves that are on any of their equipment, BUT some dealers don't seem to be up on even simple hydraulics the way that they should be. </font>
As I said, I respectfully disagree with you on almost everything you said. Here is where I agree with you.
