Resolving self leveling dislike

[Boss 302]

Your pic of the RX6010 is accurate to what mine is, as I noted earlier you do not need that much dump angle, remember the law of gravity. Also to answer Xfaxman, modifying the bale spear won't keep dirt or gravel from falling out of the bucket. One of the problems with the self-loader is the curl cylinders are too long and as noted earlier most of the dump on a self-leveler comes from the mechanical arms moving forward. My bale spear is just like any other that's attached to the quick attach plate and with the self-leveler it isn't enough rollback when on slopes. This is just one man's opinion so please don't get offended when I say this but, I think the self-leveler is probably fine for the average homeowner doing odd jobs with his tractor but, for the farmer/construction duties it falls well short of adequate. BTW: shortening the tube that's attached to the triangular brackets isn't an option as the triangular bracket bottoms out as it rolls back.

 

[npalen]

I've seen loaders that offered two pivot locations on those triangular plates. One position would give more curl and less dump, while the other position would be the opposite. Actually, there was a tractor with a loader like this for sale last week but I didn't think about saving a picture of that before the tractor was sold.

Cutting the links that Xfaxman pointed out in post #16 may or may not work, because of the way the linkage sits when the loader is lowered all the way.

View attachment 727352

A little closer view.
Edit: Well maybe not a whole lot closer.

 

[K5lwq]

What if you made some shorter linkages that go to the bucket? Not sure how much extension the cylinder has when dumping but maybe there is enough.

 

[ptsg]

Your pic of the RX6010 is accurate to what mine is, as I noted earlier you do not need that much dump angle, remember the law of gravity. Also to answer Xfaxman, modifying the bale spear won't keep dirt or gravel from falling out of the bucket. One of the problems with the self-loader is the curl cylinders are too long and as noted earlier most of the dump on a self-leveler comes from the mechanical arms moving forward. My bale spear is just like any other that's attached to the quick attach plate and with the self-leveler it isn't enough rollback when on slopes. This is just one man's opinion so please don't get offended when I say this but, I think the self-leveler is probably fine for the average homeowner doing odd jobs with his tractor but, for the farmer/construction duties it falls well short of adequate. BTW: shortening the tube that's attached to the triangular brackets isn't an option as the triangular bracket bottoms out as it rolls back.

Not offended by any means but farmer/construction tasks, including homeowner tasks, are exactly where self leveling loaders shine and are used the most. At least on this side of the pond anyways. Just guessing a number here, but I would say over 80% of the loaders are self leveling, either mechanically or hydraulically, that only means it works well. Then again, the loaders will get quite a bit more curl/rollback than the Kioti one, at least from looking at pictures on Google.

Looks to me that you're just experiencing some less than ideal design on the mechanism for the self leveling.

Here are two pictures comparing both. Left is mechanical self leveling and right is hydraulic self leveling. The right one gets the same curl as the non self leveling loaders. The left one curls a little bit less than the other.

 

[ovrszd]

I agree with Pedro. The problem isn't that it's a self leveling bucket. The problem is the design. Personally, I'm not intelligent enough to offer a solution based on given information.

My Ford TLB is self leveling. It's awesome for moving bucket loads of material. Would also be awesome for bale forks. It dumps fine at any height. It carries a full bucket of material at any height. Fill the bucket on the ground, roll it back all the way, raise the FEL to it's max height without rollback adjustment, no spillage.

 

[LouNY]

Not offended by any means but farmer/construction tasks, including homeowner tasks, are exactly where self leveling loaders shine and are used the most. At least on this side of the pond anyways. Just guessing a number here, but I would say over 80% of the loaders are self leveling, either mechanically or hydraulically, that only means it works well. Then again, the loaders will get quite a bit more curl/rollback than the Kioti one, at least from looking at pictures on Google.

Looks to me that you're just experiencing some less than ideal design on the mechanism for the self leveling.

Here are two pictures comparing both. Left is mechanical self leveling and right is hydraulic self leveling. The right one gets the same curl as the non self leveling loaders. The left one curls a little bit less than the other.

Evening ptsg;
Could you get more pictures of the hydraulic self leveling?
Looking at the picture of the one on the right, I'm not seeing as to how it would be able to self level.
Is there linkage hidden in the main boom arms to the bucket?
It looks to me almost like its just a lift assist for raising.

Thanks
Lou

 

[ptsg]

Evening ptsg;
Could you get more pictures of the hydraulic self leveling?
Looking at the picture of the one on the right, I'm not seeing as to how it would be able to self level.
Is there linkage hidden in the main boom arms to the bucket?
It looks to me almost like its just a lift assist for raising.

Thanks
Lou

Yes sir, I can.

The hydraulic self leveling is done with the two short cylinders just above the lift cylinders. These cylinders are tied into the the curl/dump circuits, so it always gives feedback so the bucket stays level every time. This system doesn't lose position like some systems that use an hydraulic self leveling valve do. There is a lot of math and geometry going behind this that's just a little too much for me to explain right.

With either type of self leveling, hydraulic or mechanic, there is an instance that an extra relief valve is needed to avoid breaking stuff. That instance happens when the loader is down and the bucket is fully dumped, if the operator tried to lift the loader, the mechanical linkage or fluid in case of hydraulic, would try to dump the bucket further than it can go and something would break. To avoid this, they put a relief valve that dumps the fluid from the extending side of the curl cylinders to the retracting/rod side of the lifting cylinders.

Here is a close up picture of these smaller cylinders.

Just clocked midnight here, well 30-ish minutes ago anyway. Happy New Year everyone!

 

[IndyJay]

Yes sir, I can.

The hydraulic self leveling is done with the two short cylinders just above the lift cylinders. These cylinders are tied into the the curl/dump circuits, so it always gives feedback so the bucket stays level every time. This system doesn't lose position like some systems that use an hydraulic self leveling valve do. There is a lot of math and geometry going behind this that's just a little too much for me to explain right.

With either type of self leveling, hydraulic or mechanic, there is an instance that an extra relief valve is needed to avoid breaking stuff. That instance happens when the loader is down and the bucket is fully dumped, if the operator tried to lift the loader, the mechanical linkage or fluid in case of hydraulic, would try to dump the bucket further than it can go and something would break. To avoid this, they put a relief valve that dumps the fluid from the extending side of the curl cylinders to the retracting/rod side of the lifting cylinders.

Here is a close up picture of these smaller cylinders.

View attachment 727380 View attachment 727379

Just clocked midnight here, well 30-ish minutes ago anyway. Happy New Year everyone!

Happy New Year to you too Pedro, we are still 4 hours away from 2022.

 

[Fixastuff]

Wouldn't it be easier to change the bucket attachment points and keep then self level feature?

 

[Oz_Kioti]

Also does anyone have recommendation on where I can purchase a good quality paint that matches the Kioti orange?

After I added a grill guard, I checked with my local Kioti dealer for a spray can of Kioti orange, but they were out of stock, so I visited a spray shop.

After visually matching the original guard frame with different swatch books, we (not the "Royal" we!) made a selection, and it was as close as we reckoned we would ever get. He mixed up a litre for me.



After re-spraying the frame, I can see that the frame is a touch darker than the original. Here are two shots, from different angles:



However, a wide view shows that depending of the angle of the light, the tractor looks like MANY shades of orange:



So who's going to notice anyway?

EDIT: And yes, I too wish it crowded a bit more. I have to take it easy going downhill with a load of anything in the 4-in-1 bucket to help prevent things/bits from falling off the front edge.

 

[LouNY]

Yes sir, I can.

The hydraulic self leveling is done with the two short cylinders just above the lift cylinders. These cylinders are tied into the the curl/dump circuits, so it always gives feedback so the bucket stays level every time. This system doesn't lose position like some systems that use an hydraulic self leveling valve do. There is a lot of math and geometry going behind this that's just a little too much for me to explain right.

With either type of self leveling, hydraulic or mechanic, there is an instance that an extra relief valve is needed to avoid breaking stuff. That instance happens when the loader is down and the bucket is fully dumped, if the operator tried to lift the loader, the mechanical linkage or fluid in case of hydraulic, would try to dump the bucket further than it can go and something would break. To avoid this, they put a relief valve that dumps the fluid from the extending side of the curl cylinders to the retracting/rod side of the lifting cylinders.

Here is a close up picture of these smaller cylinders.

View attachment 727380 View attachment 727379

Just clocked midnight here, well 30-ish minutes ago anyway. Happy New Year everyone!

Thanks and a Happy New Year to you.

So that cylinder is tied into the dump curl circuit, I would assume on the dump side,
so with the bucket level and on the ground you can drive into a pile and curl back getting a full bucket,
then as the main lift arms are lifting, those cylinders are being extended and pulling and allowing some of the fluid
in the dump side of the bucket to move into those cylinders causing the bucket to slowly dump as they are extended
to maintain level.
Interesting Thanks for the pics.
So those are just one way cylinders vented on the rod end and plumbed to the curl line on the base end.

 

[ptsg]

Thanks and a Happy New Year to you.

So that cylinder is tied into the dump curl circuit, I would assume on the dump side,
so with the bucket level and on the ground you can drive into a pile and curl back getting a full bucket,
then as the main lift arms are lifting, those cylinders are being extended and pulling and allowing some of the fluid
in the dump side of the bucket to move into those cylinders causing the bucket to slowly dump as they are extended
to maintain level.
Interesting Thanks for the pics.
So those are just one way cylinders vented on the rod end and plumbed to the curl line on the base end.

Thank you Lou!

I've found a diagram on a manual for one of the loader made here. It's not 100% accurate as they show a check valve when in reality they use a relief valve there.

This should help visualize how this style of self leveling works. I also translated the text.

 

[npalen]

After I added a grill guard, I checked with my local Kioti dealer for a spray can of Kioti orange, but they were out of stock, so I visited a spray shop.

After visually matching the original guard frame with different swatch books, we (not the "Royal" we!) made a selection, and it was as close as we reckoned we would ever get. He mixed up a litre for me.

View attachment 727403

After re-spraying the frame, I can see that the frame is a touch darker than the original. Here are two shots, from different angles:

View attachment 727404 View attachment 727405

However, a wide view shows that depending of the angle of the light, the tractor looks like MANY shades of orange:

View attachment 727406

So who's going to notice anyway?

EDIT: And yes, I too wish it crowded a bit more. I have to take it easy going downhill with a load of anything in the 4-in-1 bucket to help prevent things/bits from falling off the front edge.

Interesting on the last pic where the links from the bellcranks going to the back are a different color. It looks like the design lets the bellcrank rotate a little farther for more curl. Are these the original links?

 

[npalen]

With either type of self leveling, hydraulic or mechanic, there is an instance that an extra relief valve is needed to avoid breaking stuff.

So, on mechanical SL, does the loader's SCV relief prevent mechanical damage in a case where the loader tries to raise with the bucket in the fully dumped position? Seems like that would have to be the case.

 

[ptsg]

With either type of self leveling, hydraulic or mechanic, there is an instance that an extra relief valve is needed to avoid breaking stuff.

So, on mechanical SL, does the loader's SCV relief prevent mechanical damage in a case where the loader tries to raise with the bucket in the fully dumped position? Seems like that would have to be the case.

Yes, but that would mean that the loader would stop about halfway or close to that, because the bucket couldn't dump any further. This extra relief valve on self leveling loaders, allows the dump cylinder to give and lets the loader raise all the way.

If you note on the last picture on Oz_Kioti's post, you can see this relief and can actually trace the lines.

 

[npalen]

Yes, but that would mean that the loader would stop about halfway or close to that, because the bucket couldn't dump any further. This extra relief valve on self leveling loaders, allows the dump cylinder to give and lets the loader raise all the way.

If you note on the last picture on Oz_Kioti's post, you can see this relief and can actually trace the lines.

Sure enough, I see the valve. I wonder if that is a typical cross-over relief and, if so, how it allows for the volume difference between the rod end and base end of the curl cylinders. Maybe it relieves to tank?

This is an interesting thread but Boss 302 may think he created a monster.

 

[ptsg]

Sure enough, I see the valve. I wonder if that is a typical cross-over relief and, if so, how it allows for the volume difference between the rod end and base end of the curl cylinders. Maybe it relieves to tank?

This is an interesting thread but Boss 302 may think he created a monster.

That valve relieves the pressure on the extending side of the curl cylinders to the retracting side of the lift cylinders. That valve will only work while lifting the loader and if the bucket was fully dumped without reaching max lift one the loader. Being that it only works while lifting, the rod side of lift cylinders have the path open to the tank, so technically, yes it dumps to the tank through the lift cylinders.

The valve is set at lower pressure than system pressure. From the diagram I shared above, looks like a 40 to 50 Bar diference in pressure.

Yes you're right about this thread. I'd like to apologize to the op for derailing his thread.

 

[LD1]

The answer is back early in this thread.

Shorten the msl arms or shorten the curl cylinder extension.

I wouldn't weld.or modify anything that cannot simply be swapped back.

I would like to see a pic of the OP's tractor from the side with the bucket curled full back.

 

[npalen]

That valve relieves the pressure on the extending side of the curl cylinders to the retracting side of the lift cylinders. That valve will only work while lifting the loader and if the bucket was fully dumped without reaching max lift one the loader. Being that it only works while lifting, the rod side of lift cylinders have the path open to the tank, so technically, yes it dumps to the tank through the lift cylinders.

The valve is set at lower pressure than system pressure. From the diagram I shared above, looks like a 40 to 50 Bar diference in pressure.

Yes you're right about this thread. I'd like to apologize to the op for derailing his thread.

Interesting and your expertise and willingness to explain from across the pond is appreciated!

 

[SwingOak]

Thanks for the paint suggestions, the main reason I do not like the self-leveling loader is due to the very limited roll back. If you are moving round bales of hay on sloped land and traveling down the slope the bales will fall off due to a very limited roll back. Another reason is whenever you are moving gravel or dirt you are not able to heap the bucket with the material and you will still lose some of the material while moving and if it's on a slope it's worse. The only thing I have found positive about the self-leveling is when I am using my forks, otherwise it has no value add in the types of work that I do.

I agree with this 100%, the biggest problem for me is handling large squares - I can't tilt the bale forks back far enough to stack large squares 4 high. I can pick up two at a time and do it that way, which is fine most of the time, but not when I need to handle them one at a time, like picking the top bale off, or for very large/heavy bales.

I was thinking of replacing the top tie rail with a rail that has short stroke hydraulic cylinders. That way when fully extended, the self leveling function will still work, but when the bucket is raised and the cylinders are retracted, that would allow the bucket to curl back a little more. It would have to be controlled separately, but perhaps I could use the 3rd function control for this.

Hmm...