Restriction in open and closed center systems

   / Restriction in open and closed center systems #21  
Pump ratings are mis leading the way they are pronounced....10 GPM rating do not tell us directly AT WHAT RPM....you have to DIG to get that info.....I prefere to classify pumps by DISPLACEMENT and MAX RPM

My new B2320 has 4.7 gpm in the specs for flow thru the 3ph (has double gear pump, some flow goes to PS), the specs don't show rpm's in that rating....but in my video with flow meter you can see that flow is 4.7 gpm's @ 2000 rpm's......IIRC 5.5 gpm @ 2800 rpm's....( 4% error factor on flow meter).....

Even Kubota is misleading in their specs.....:thumbsup:
 
   / Restriction in open and closed center systems
  • Thread Starter
#22  
My new B2320 has 4.7 gpm in the specs for flow thru the 3ph (has double gear pump, some flow goes to PS), the specs don't show rpm's in that rating....but in my video with flow meter you can see that flow is 4.7 gpm's @ 2000 rpm's......IIRC 5.5 gpm @ 2800 rpm's....( 4% error factor on flow meter).....

Even Kubota is misleading in their specs.....:thumbsup:

2800/2000=1.4
1.4 x 4.7=6.58GPM....
so you think you lost 6.58 - 5.5=1.08 GPM????

What was pressure at the first 2000rpm/4.7gpm flow?
and what was pressure at the 2800rpm/5.5gpm flow?
It still seem to be some error somewhere.....of course pressure will increase a little at 2800rpm, but not so much so you loose 1.08 gpm in pump-internal-leakage....either your rpms is showing wrong or your flow meter messed you up, or pump is in real bad shape, which is very unlikely....you should expect 6.5 gpm at 2800rpm
 
   / Restriction in open and closed center systems #23  
A Man,

Right you are again!!:thumbsup:


I thought I revved it up to 2800 on the dash.....somethings off.....either F/M or the dash guage on tractor......can't imagine the pumps off (seeing it only has 46 hrs on the HM.....

Math was never was my strong subject in school:laughing::laughing:
 
   / Restriction in open and closed center systems
  • Thread Starter
#24  
Back to original thread...

My point was to show that we control the out put power different in Open Center systems than Closed Center systems....

and a work port flow control restrictor accordingly will do different things in the two systems

I think we can agree on that we need to DIVERT flow, when we use work port restrictors in Open Center system (constant flow)

Hydraulic power is the product of flow and pressure...

HORSEPOWER = PRESSURE(PSIG) x FLOW(GPM)/1714
metric is so much easier....power (kW)= pressure(MPa) x flow (l/sec)...:laughing:

To vary the TOTAL out put power in a constant flow system, we use the control valve to VARY THE PRESSURE (the center "valve")....as shown on my previous posts...and we might only use part of the TOTAL power for real WORK, the rest will be diverted as heat....both from DIVERTED FLOW and/or DIVERTED PRESSURE (pressure drop). Pump always tend to increase pressure so much that max flow can be maintained.....Demand for pressure is controlled by the control valve (center valve)

To vary the TOTAL out put power in a Closed Center system (constant pressure), we use the control valve (the work port "valve") to VARY THE FLOW. The pump is variable and can internally change the displacement by sensing the max allowed pressure. Pump always tend to increase flow so much that max pressure can be maintained..... Demand for flow is controlled by the work port valve

Adding an additional work port restrictor is accordingly an easy fix in a closed center system (constant pressure), because system will react like a using a normal "throttle" valve....just a restricted demand on flow......

But adding an additional work port restrictor will not work the same way in an Open Center system (constant flow).....we want to reduce speed but use a device (restrictor) that actually will increase pressure. Increased supply pressure usually means increased speed, so we have to divert A LOT of power (flow) to reduce the actuator speed....so the consequences with a work port restrictor in a constant flow system is INCREASED PRESSURE, and INCREASED POWER LOSSES (HEAT).

CONCLUSION is that if we do not allow VARIABLE RPM's (lower rpm's) on an open center system, we will get a lot of power losses.

A lot of equipment today, has hydrostatic drive (wheel travel), this works best on a constant raised rpm....maybe around 1500 rpm or so....and this will then become a conflict when using the open center hydraulic implements, like FEL, back hoe etc....which would do better operated with a variable "prime mover" (engine) EDIT:rpm's....or in other words throttle engine when there is a demand on increased flow...and lower rpm's when (let up gas pedal) when you want to "feather".... and if you do this you will save a lot of fuel, have less overheating problems and operate your implements much smoother....
 
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   / Restriction in open and closed center systems #25  
Thanks AKKAMAAN, was not understanding you at first part, now understand.
BTW, metric is not easier for us hillbillies!!:laughing:
 
   / Restriction in open and closed center systems
  • Thread Starter
#26  
Thanks AKKAMAAN, was not understanding you at first part, now understand.
BTW, metric is not easier for us hillbillies!!:laughing:

Metric is a system with NO conversion factors in formulas....like "1714" in the power formula...
BTW....what part didn't you understand/was confusing.....:confused2:....tried to simplify but instead I confused??:(
 
   / Restriction in open and closed center systems #27  
Thanks AKKAMAAN, was not understanding you at first part, now understand.
BTW, metric is not easier for us hillbillies!!:laughing:

BTW....what part didn't you understand/was confusing.....:confused2:....tried to simplify but instead I confused??:(
;)mmurphy, ya just gotta unnerstan that the Pascal [N/sqM] is a unit of pressure so small that an infinite number of them is still a finite pressure. Thats why they nearly always have Megas or Gigas in front of them.
larry
 
   / Restriction in open and closed center systems
  • Thread Starter
#28  
;)mmurphy, ya just gotta unnerstan that the Pascal [N/sqM] is a unit of pressure so small that an infinite number of them is still a finite pressure. Thats why they nearly always have Megas or Gigas in front of them.
larry

Another thing that is is different with these two units, is the fact that Newton is a "force" defined as the force it takes to change the state of a mass, and lbs as a force unit is actually a mass unit or a weight...

All metric base units do directly connect to each other and to make logic sub units....often with multiples of 1000....

benefits with metric...

Of about 6 billion people on earth, only 300 million DO NOT use the International System for units......

Would changing into metric system in USA, be like trying to turn around a super tanker in the Panama Canal??
 
   / Restriction in open and closed center systems #29  
yeah, well a pound is a force too because weight is a force defined by earth. A pound force will accelerate a pound mass 32ft/ss. Forget the slimey creatures and impact units.
larry
 
   / Restriction in open and closed center systems #30  
Of about 6 billion people on earth, only 300 million DO NOT use the International System for units......

Would changing into metric system in USA, be like trying to turn around a super tanker in the Panama Canal??

Isn't it strange our money system is metric but theirs is not:confused2:
 

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