Retaining walls-suggestions???

[Anonymous Poster]

Harvey & everyone else: Many thanks for your advice & wise counsel. The only reason for telephone poles is I can get them free for the hauling. Since they run 8"-12" or more in diameter I was thinking they might be strong enough to avoid use of deadmen, etc. & since they would allow seepage through the wall avoid installing drains. I had, of course, intended to tie them together as they went up. However . . . from the suggestions here I guess that really isn't too good an idea. One of my many failings in life is being a cheap SOB which is sometimes good but often costs more in the long run than simply biting the bullet and doing things the "normal" way. Re: fences above the wall thanks for suggestions but would certainly do that-well aware of liability issues. From the comments here, it is apparently possible to put up a wall without a deep footing (i.e. use of gravel under the "wall") and use of loose fitting stone/concrete. I did not want to go "solid" with weep holes as the total length will be around 400', albeit much of that under 3' in height. The purpose of the wall (as mentioned in my original post) is to level the property to the end of selling it as commercial. My house is a bastardized Frank Lloyd Wright knock-off built in the mid 1950s. The interstate came through and is just a few hundred feet from the property which adjoins the service road in a major metro area within a block of a new convention center supposedly going up within a year. The property has many, many large trees that I have begun taking down. It is large enough for a McDonalds (boy do we need more of those!), or other small commercial use needing good visibility from the freeway (I-70). I have been advised by brokers that leveling it, putting in retaining walls & tearing the house down!! will maximize its price (it will be priced by the square foot!). To Macher: the reason I did not want to go with a slope along the edges is to increase usable square footage. In any event, I guess I will have to bite the bullet and hire an engineer (as many have wisely suggested). I am expecting delivery on a new TC40 with loader and backhoe in a few weeks. So, next year I can work on it without having to rent equipment, trying to use my Farmall (recently sold) as a piece of compact construction equipment, etc. Again, thanks to everyone who responded and for the advice. John

 

[yooperdave]

Hi John,

Couldn't the buyer of the property put in the retaining wall after a final game plan has been designed and documented?

Not knowing what the future buyer intends to do might waste your resources. They may have a different idea than you in terms of laying everything out.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Dave: yes, but when you're selling stuff the "prettier" it looks the better. Also, if the walls are already there it would be one less thing for the buyer to mess with. Any commercial use would involve retaining walls to maximize usable square footage so it would be worthwhile for any buyer no matter what the intended use. Of course, I could just level it and use steep grading along the edges (as someone else suggested here & which I briefly considered) but that would reduce usable area by thousands of sq ft. Since I have (or will have shortly) equipment on site anyway, why not do it myself? If a prospective buyer can "move-in" with the walls already there the whole property should be worth $1.00 or more extra per squage foot. As long as my cost is less than $15-$20k I will come out well ahead. Thanks. Happy New year. John

 

[WVBill]

John:

I'm in agreement with Dave.

<font color=blue>"when you're selling stuff the "prettier" it looks the better.'</font color=blue> is absolutely true if the most likely use of the property is residential.

But if the most likely use is commercial as you've indicated (and based on your described location), I would think a potential buyer/developer would rather see the property in it's "native" form. If I were McDonalds and considering your property I think I would rather deal with putting up my own retaining wall (or maybe just cutting into the bank and putting up a 2 story restraunt) than trying to figure out if the brand new retaining wall you put up is going to support my drive-thru lane.

Of course if you've got real estate brokers telling you different then maybe they're seeing something I'm not.

 

[bgott]

You might not want to mess with it. You might open yourself up to liability problems later. You might also check into liability insurance for just this job so you're covered in event of a boo -boo. When they build commercial buildings they do a lot of ground stabilization and compaction. If your wall wasn't built just right those vibratory compactors they use could blow the wall out and they would probably sue you over it if they had to rebuild it. Those compactors do some serious shaking. I was 15 feet up a ladder one time drilling a hole in a wall for lights when they started compacting the driveway 75' away and it almost knocked me off the ladder. If your wall wasn't just right it would definitely would move with one of those running near by.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Afternoon Micromike,

You asked about <A target="_blank" HREF=http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/vwp?.dir=/ben+brook&.src=ph&.dnm=MVC-001F.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/wroughtnharv/lst%3f%26.dir=/ben%2bbrook%26.src=ph%26.view=t>this kind of wall</A>?

This wall about fifteen hundred feet long cost over a million dollars. The process I understand is proprietory. All I did was build in place the barrier rail on top.

The way it's made is three foot diameter piers were drilled sixty feet deep on eight foot centers. These were filled with concrete and steel. The dirt was removed and as it was the wall was poured in place. It was anchored to the piers.

These are not put together blocks but concrete poured into forms that give the appearance of stone work. The concrete is colored. One of the things that is impressive about this particular wall is how well the color matches through out the length of the wall. Especially when you consider the truck pulls up with regular concrete, probably six sack or better. Then they add the color to each truck load as it arrives.

On the telephone poles. I haven't seen anyone mention the hazards of working with them when it comes to getting burned. The creosote will burn you like a sunburn from heck and back. I shudder to think what it does to the lungs.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Brad: The "theory" is to maximize my input (especially having just bought a new TC40 w-hoe/loader) in order to add value. You are, of course, correct in that a particular buyer might have specific uses. However, I did run a "test" ad (i.e. trial ballon) a few months ago. The responses seemed to indicate maximum usable sq footage was important (one guy was contemplating moving his used car lot to get much better exposure). I have not approached any large companies who might have a use for it. Regarding building their structure into a hill, there might be a problem regarding the issue of set backs, although I guess a variance could be obtained. Parking running to the very edge is no problem, even over a 5' utility easement on the east side.
Brad: Naturally, liability waivers for everything from lead based paint to buried nuclear waste would have to be in any sale contract. Also, I had planned to compact along the walls using a small compactor-whether these are heavy enough I can't say, but, they are used occasionally for compacting graves (to reduce/avoid settling). So far as I know, there has not been a problem crushing/shattering the vaults/concrete boxes under the compacted ground. But . . . you may be right. Frankly, that is one item I had not considered. Maybe the compactor I was planning on renting isn't big enough, and a big one would simply knock any wall down. Ugh, what a thought! Also, Brad, your profile shows you have a TN65. How do you like it? Of all the tractors I looked at I liked the TN series the best. I ended up with a smaller NH though partly because of cost and partly because I figured 35 PTO HP would handle everything ok. The TN series offers an optional hydraulic pump at 16 gph which is impressive, also, I really liked the lay-out/ergonomics etc on the TN.
thanks for the imput. Frankly, I am beginning to wonder if I should rethink my strategy. hope no one celebrated too much last night. John

 

[Anonymous Poster]

John: thanks for ref to alanblock web site. finally had chance to check it. they have bunch of drawings in autocad format (which I can use since I have Autocad). but, from what others have been suggesting, I wonder if this type of system will hold up for "commercial" use. Anyway, will download their stuff. this looks as easy as the tele pole idea and more permanent, albeit more money (although, as someone has mentioned, no reason the concept couldn't been used for self cast blocks-I have done some experimental casting of wall blocks). the max height is probably 6-7' more/less so it shouldn't require 3'-4' dia reinforced columns down to bed rock-it doesn't need to support a multi story office building!!!, only keep compacted dirt from sliding downhill when an automobile (or similar) rests on it. ground loading near the wall shouldn't be over 50 psi at most. John

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Your problem is that most companies like McDonalds, BK, or any other company that is going to invest in a building will not build on new fill unless their contractor put the fill in. Country Fair put in a new gas station right next to a Pizza Hut on 20 and 60 in Fredonia. Before they built, since it was a ravine, they excavated the topsoil off of the area. Then had their contractors come in and put up a fairly large block retaining wall and compacted the entire area (not just along the wall) every foot. They had to do this to ensure the ground would not settle once they started building the gas station and market on top of the fill. The little tamper you are talking about using will not do the job well since it can only compact around 6" at a time and even then it takes a lot of work to cover the area you are talking with a 18" wide compactor. I understand what you are hoping for but it isn't worth the expense and if anything, might devalue the lot if the company has to tear out your wall because it doesn't meet their specs. If you want to sell, sell the lot the way it is and get the most money for the least work. Otherwise, talk to some large contractors in your area who work in this specific field and see what they advise you to do. Good luck.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I know of at least 3 commercial properties in my area that have used the Alan Block for retaining walls. Western PA is very hilly and there are many applications for retaining walls.

There is a Kohl's department store not far from me that has a 60 foot high wall about 400-500 foot long. I believe they used the Versa-Lock product. About six months ago a large section of the wall collapsed. Since you plan to sell the property for commercial use I think you should have an engineer design the wall and specify the material to use. My wife works for a surveying and engineering company and they frequently are asked to testify in court cases where retaining walls have collapsed on commercial property. Usually the court rules that the wall was installed improperly and the construction company has to eat the cost of re-installing the wall.

John

 

[beenthere]

<font color=blue>""Not just because they eventually rot, but freeze/thaw cycling on wood can be devastating to it. <font color=black>""

I think your point that wood for a retaining wall is not that permanent is very good and a wise concern (especially used telephone poles). However, the comment that "freeze/thaw cycling on wood can be devastating to it" doesn't compute with me. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?

 

[kyoders]

beenthere,

Here in western NC, and in SW Ohio, the winters are typically below freezing for a few days, then above for several more, back and forth probably 15-20 times. I and my neighbor have some small walls/steps built from 6x5 landscape timbers, none over 4 years old, put in by the builder. My small wall has 2 timbers split, causing the back side to twist forward about 3 or 4 inches. My neighbor has several steps that are in bad shape, as well as a section of the wall coming out.

I believe most of the damage has been caused by water penetrating the timbers, then freezing. There are sections where there was an existing crack/void, and those have all been pushed out, while adjacent areas with no voids/cracks have not. From that, I concluded it had to have something to do with the water getting in the voids.

At this point, I doubt the one wall is going to last more than 3 or 4 more years, and replacing it is going to be big bucks (a whole lot more than if the builder had done it "right" to begin with). That is why I generally relegate wood walls to areas where there is no structural reason for having it, and where it can easily be replaced when needed. In those cases, the wood can be cost effective (especially if the wood is free, as in your case).

Kevin

 

[bgott]

I love my TN. I was looking at compacts and decided that I didn't want to limit myself by buying too small a tractor. There is only one place on my properties that it won't fit into that I need to fill with dirt and a chainsaw will cure that. I've shoehorned this thing into some really tight places. I can lift 3000 pounds with the loader and it will lift high enough to load a 40 yard dumpster over the side. The only problems I've had with it, besides problems with the diff lock, have been with the dealer installed loader. I recommend it without reservations!

 

[Robert_in_NY]

What problem did you have with the dif lock? Right now I am having a problem with a short in the 12v power supply harness. I have no power to my 12v socket and when I replace the fuse for it since it was blown it leaves the dash lights on. My dealer is going to fix it and put it thru another tractors warranty so it won't cost me anything to fix. I am curious about the dif though since my tractor will probally be picked up today and I might have them look at that as well if it is something to worry about. Take care.

 

[bgott]

They had a recall on the TN 65 because the diff lock wouldn't work. I learned about it here on TBN but me and this search engine don't get along so I can't give you the post to reference. Anyway, they take the mechanism apart and use anti seize to lubricate it, if I remember right. Mine seems to be hanging up again. The dealer pulled the right rear tire to access the mechanism. Recall # 509 keeps sticking in my mind but I wouldn't make book on it. If it's a recall you ought to be able to get it done for free.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I had that done a while ago. I wasn't sure if you had another problem with the dif lock that I did not know about. Either way, I am glad I bought the TN. I have one of the first ones sold and have had about every problem mentioned but the tractor has still exceeded my expectations before I bought. Well, Have a great day and talk to you later.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Groan . . . well, you guys have convinced me. Initially I will simply level it and use slopes along the edges in lieu of retaining walls (i.e. no leveling to the edges). When that's done we will see-if left that way for the buyer fine, if not, it will be easier to put them in later anyway. Frankly, on reflection, I guess I should probably be spending time finding a buyer FIRST, then doing the modifications required-ah, well, putting the cart before the horse is just one of my many failings in life! The max value will be when they break ground for the new convention center and that may be awhile longer. I will proceed with a commercial access though (I have plans from MoDot-Missouri Department of Transportation-they have looked at the property & said they would approve access) as I can use that myself until it is sold-and it will certainly add value. The post about a 60' retaining wall collapsing . . . ugh. Wasn't that built with engineering plans, "professional" contractors, etc.? Do I really need to dig out my copy of Civil Engineering Handbook & spend days & do calculations, etc. myself? Anyway, thanks guys. John P.S. Brad, glad you like your TN-almost makes my wish I'd went that route-of course, can always trade up. In the mean time, I've got the extra $8-$9k on hand. Also, saw a factory TN in yellow recently-they are supposedly selling them for "commercial" use. Take care all.

 

[bgott]

An extra 8 or 9 grand, eh? What were your quotes on the TN and the TC?

 

[Anonymous Poster]

The last I heard on the 60 foot retaining wall was that the contractor was on the hook for not installing it according to spec.

In any case, it's a costly situation. If I am in that area in the next couple of weeks I will take a picture and post it.

John

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Brad: I paid $15,486 for TC40, 4wd, deluxe 3-point, fold ROPS, R4s, 1 set of remotes, dealer added temp guage. The LA16 loader, grill guard, 72" HD bucket, skid steer quick attach, 758C BH, 36" cemetery bucket was $11,030. [$26,516 in all] The TN55, 4wd, dual remotes, extend links, hi vol hydraulic pump, 8x8 synchro trans was $22,000. LA32 w-msl was $5,100 and a 758C BH w-16" bucket was an additional $6,475 (actual quotes-he had the TN & loader on lot to deliver). [$33,575 in all]. Actually, had I gone the TN route, I would have gotton a larger BH since the tractor & hydraulics could have handled it easily. Also, the TN65 is the exact same engine as the TN55 except it has been tweaked to add a few more HP-that would have added about $1250. So . . . I figure I would have spent around $35k for the TN vs. the $26,516 for the TC, or, a hair less than $9k difference. One of the problems in buying tractors is determining dealer cost. I was never able to find a "wholesale/dealer cost" price guide like those available for autos & small trucks. So, a dealer could give you a price and it might be a super deal, or, somewhat less than generous. Thus the only way is to check around at different dealers to get a handle on what is a good price. I didn't buy the TC from the absolute lowest quote because I had some experience with another dealer from whom I bought a 22' gooseneck trailer and some implements, but I did use the lowest quote to get him to come down some. I had been shopping for awhile and it had reached the point where he wanted to do a deal even if he didn't make as much on it, i.e. as much a matter of satisfaction as anything. Frankly, just as sellers use psychology on the buyer, the buyer can do the same turnabout against the seller. Anyway, hope the above answers your question. Actually, this would probably be better posted in NH pricing forum. Take care. John P.S. saw my new TC yesterday-was delivered to dealer from Georgia thurs eve. should be ready for me to pick up within week/10 days as soon as the hoe gets there. P.P.S. Brad, just out of curiosity, are the above prices consistent with your experience???