Right to repair laws coming?

[Muhammad]

Biden backs ‘right to repair,’ from tractors to tech

President Biden will issue an executive order to expand competition in the agricultural sector and assure farmers of the right to repair increasingly complex tractors and other equipment.

www.agriculture.com

Please use your best efforts to keep political debate out of this topic and keep your comments related to the right to repair issue and what this would mean for tractor companies and tractor owners.

 

[Diggin It]

We need to get well passed the notion of renting or leasing parts of equipment that you bought. In my view, all manuals; owners, parts and service should be included with a purchase. Software access should also be included at no cost even if you have to buy a tool/scanner. Many buyers don't live close enough to a servicing dealer to be fully dependent on them.

If you do something with the manual or scanner that screws something up, well, then you have to pay, just like if you break any other part.

 

[fried1765]

Biden backs ‘right to repair,’ from tractors to tech

President Biden will issue an executive order to expand competition in the agricultural sector and assure farmers of the right to repair increasingly complex tractors and other equipment.

www.agriculture.com

Please use your best efforts to keep political debate out of this topic and keep your comments related to the right to repair issue and what this would mean for tractor companies and tractor owners.

Your posting of "Biden backs 'right to repair', from tractors to tech", actually will incentify "political debate".

 

[ptsg]

Your posting of "Biden backs 'right to repair', from tractors to tech", actually will incentify "political debate".

It's just a left over from the original post. I'm sure Muhammad missed it when edited the thread.

 

[dmccarty]

Ticks me off that JD is pushing this sort of nonsense on it's customers. I hope politicians of both sides jump on the band wagon to stop this sort of non competitive behavior. As bad as this is for tractors, it is worse for marine engines.

JD has a good percentage of the marine engine market. However, they will not supply spare ECMs to boat owners for some reason. These boats are traveling oceans and remote places and if the ECM dies, the engine is toast. This could cause the loss of the boat and the death of the crew. JD refuses to sell spares ECMs which is unreal.

Later,
Dan

 

[fried1765]

Ticks me off that JD is pushing this sort of nonsense on it's customers. I hope politicians of both sides jump on the band wagon to stop this sort of non competitive behavior. As bad as this is for tractors, it is worse for marine engines.

JD has a good percentage of the marine engine market. However, they will not supply spare ECMs to boat owners for some reason. These boats are traveling oceans and remote places and if the ECM dies, the engine is toast. This could cause the loss of the boat and the death of the crew. JD refuses to sell spares ECMs which is unreal.

Later,
Dan

I would expect that to depress the resale value of JD powered yachts.

 

[jerrybob]

That's good....I just replaced a seal on my Yanmar 186D.....sure glad I wasn't arrested!

 

[Cat385B]

Also very important to the auto repair and parts supply industry. As BEV’s become more prevalent these new companies could have a lock on the wear items.

 

[dadiehl]

Try crossing the country in a TESLA. If something goes wrong your average garage can’t touch it. I have friends with towing services and they are afraid to touch them.

 

[Jstpssng]

I was staying in a motel about 20 years ago when a woman checked in driving a brand new BMW convertible. She was traveling from New Brusnwick to Quebec and had trashed a tire... she was stranded for several days while waiting for a replacement tire. If I spend 60K (in 2004) for a car I wouldn't own it long when that happened.

 

[Streetcar]

I had Ford Fusion as company car the first year they came out. Hit a nail and cord on tire popped. New tire took three days as it is odd size

 

[TractorGuy]

Auto manufacturers tried the same thing years ago. They got the Magneson Moss act for their troubles.

We got the cost of factory manuals run up out of site but at least we could buy them if we wanted.

As much as we all hate government intervention it's stuff like this that makes it necessary.

 

[BravoXray]

Auto manufacturers tried the same thing years ago. They got the Magneson Moss act for their troubles.

We got the cost of factory manuals run up out of site but at least we could buy them if we wanted.

As much as we all hate government intervention it's stuff like this that makes it necessary.

Manufacturers bring this type of backlash on themselves. Their goal is to make money, not sell tractors that owners can repair. If I paid $250K for a tractor, it had better come with all the manuals and access to the computer system so I could diagnose and repair it myself, otherwise I would pass on their equipment.
Farmers would only have to stop buying new equipment from JD or others for a season or two before they would change their policies. Let their stock tank and see how stockholders like it.

 

[PCABE5]

I don't see this access being free for ag just like it isn't free for the auto sector. Having the ability to purchase the software/hardware would be a very useful tool for most farmers/owners.

The auto dealerships were certainly not crippled by this and I suspect that tractor dealerships won't be hurt by this either.

 

[RickB]

The two significant flaws in the conventional wisdom surrounding this issue are as follows:

John Deere is not unique or alone in its approach to the issue, most if not all manufacturers are in lockstep.

Nowhere does "Right to Repair" include FREE access to service information, software and code or hardware.

 

[CADplans]

AND, there is the John Deere point of view,,
I think JD invested a fortune developing the software, and now, JD is trying to figure out a fair way to market that software..

JD is like any other software company,, if JD creates software, JD, or any other software developer should not be required to "give away" access to the software.

I think the real problem is the approach JD had when releasing this equipment.
The should have offered it multiple ways,,
Low cost - but pay for software access
High cost - but software access included

My SIL has a phone that was sold EXACTLY that way,,
he purchased an "unlocked" phone,, lower cost up front,, BUT,,
he can not use the "connect to local internet to make a call" feature.

My wife and I use the feature of connecting to available internet to make a call all the time.
We live in a rural location that gets poor tower service when the trees are covered in leaves.

 

[Gator6x4]

Farm equipment today is very complicated and very expensive. Very few people who owns a late model tractor, combine, etc posses neither the tools nor expertise to fix or repair.

What happens when they short something out and turns a 500 dollar repair on a 300,000 thousand dollar combine into a 100,000 thousand dollar repair.

 

[Tinhack]

I was staying in a motel about 20 years ago when a woman checked in driving a brand new BMW convertible. She was traveling from New Brusnwick to Quebec and had trashed a tire... she was stranded for several days while waiting for a replacement tire. If I spend 60K (in 2004) for a car I wouldn't own it long when that happened.

I bought a brand new 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee. It was about three months old when I broke down between Memphis and Nashville. (On my way back home to Ohio.) I just barely made it to a rest area and was able to get a tow and a ride back to Memphis. I spent two days in a motel there while the dealer replaced the bad coil under warrantee. The motel wasn't covered.

About three months later, I was at a lake with my boat and the Jeep wouldn't start. I found a dealer about 40 miles away that would tow it in and fix it. I lived in/on my boat in a state park for three nights that time. Turned out it was the coil again. The dealer had to take one off a new Jeep to get me going. Fortunately, they brought my Jeep back to me.

About thee months after that, I got a recall notice. Yes, about the coil. Into the dealer it went, again. The following year (maybe 3-4 months later), I got another recall notice about the front suspension A-frame bolts. Too late for that one too. The month before, I was on my way home from work and exiting an interstate. The Jeep veered to the left when I touched the brake. Almost took out a few signs and a guard rail. I used the emergency brake to come to a stop. I drove it straight to the dealer using the E-brake all the way. I think that was the year they found out China was supplying substandard grade-8 bolts.

JD is like any other software company,, if JD creates software, JD, or any other software developer should not be required to "give away" access to the software.

We don't need access to the "software". We just need definitions of error codes.

Just like Windows. You buy that but don't get the source code for it. Even that will tell you when an error occurs and what it means.

 

[Tinhack]

Farm equipment today is very complicated and very expensive. Very few people who owns a late model tractor, combine, etc posses neither the tools nor expertise to fix or repair.

What happens when they short something out and turns a 500 dollar repair on a 300,000 thousand dollar combine into a 100,000 thousand dollar repair.

But we should have the option none the less.

I have a very expensive (to me) code reader and cables for most all vehicles for OBD1 and OBD2. It also supports many CAN-bus systems. I don't necessarily have to fix it myself but I sure want to know what's wrong. You can't count on all dealers to be honest. What if the dealer's $500 repair is for a burned out dash light bulb?

 

[Gator6x4]

I don’t think people want to purchase the manuals, or tools to make repairs.

They want free manuals, free parts, free tools and a free mechanic with the expertise and knowledge to make the repairs while they enjoy their favorite refreshment.

I have a friend that owns a large automotive repair facility. He advised me he had over $100,000 dollars invested in diagnostic equipment and tools. He advised he thinks something is wrong if he does not get cussed out at least once a week for not doing a free diagnostic check, tell and show the person the part that is causing the problem and give the person the name and part number of the part.

 

[ericm979]

Manufacturers don't need to give away their software to make repairs possible. They just need to provide user-accessible diagnostics and configuration. One of the good things about EPA emissions regs is that they mandated the OBD and OBD2 interfaces and standardized codes. OBD2 is not as standardized and open as I'd like, but it shows the way they could go.

 

[Gator6x4]

Auto manufacturers tried the same thing years ago. They got the Magneson Moss act for their troubles.

We got the cost of factory manuals run up out of site but at least we could buy them if we wanted.

As much as we all hate government intervention it's stuff like this that makes it necessary.

It is call good ole greed. I used to buy two boxes of the XL Hardy latex gloves at Harbor Freight for Fourteen dollars and change. COVID-19 spread around the World. Purchased two boxes yesterday for $42.18.

 

[rademamj1]

I sort of find it hilarious, that many of those who complained about JD and their right to repair policy, did so because they were or are trying to circumnavigate the TIER-4 emissions equipment on the tractor. They have the skills and knowledge to get around the TIER-4 , but JD voids warranty by doing so. Hopefully, Biden's executive order is not misconstrued.

 

[Diggin It]

We don't need access to the "software". We just need definitions of error codes.

Individual owners, maybe not. Fleet owners with their own repair facilities and independent shops should however. Competition is good for most people and would allow individual owners to use small businesses more local to them than factory dealers might be.

I don’t think people want to purchase the manuals, or tools to make repairs.

They want free manuals, free parts, free tools and a free mechanic with the expertise and knowledge to make the repairs while they enjoy their favorite refreshment.

I have a friend that owns a large automotive repair facility. He advised me he had over $100,000 dollars invested in diagnostic equipment and tools. He advised he thinks something is wrong if he does not get cussed out at least once a week for not doing a free diagnostic check, tell and show the person the part that is causing the problem and give the person the name and part number of the part.

Service and parts manuals should be included with the machine.

What I usually find is that most shops will run the diagnostics and inform the owner what needs to be done, what parts might be needed and so on and give an estimate of costs. If you chosoe not to have the work done, they'll charge an hour labor for the testing, otherwise the test time is rolled into the repair.

 

[RickB]

Manufacturers don't need to give away their software to make repairs possible. They just need to provide user-accessible diagnostics and configuration. One of the good things about EPA emissions regs is that they mandated the OBD and OBD2 interfaces and standardized codes. OBD2 is not as standardized and open as I'd like, but it shows the way they could go.

None of which is mandated for off-road equipment.

 

[Gator6x4]

Individual owners, maybe not. Fleet owners with their own repair facilities and independent shops should however. Competition is good for most people and would allow individual owners to use small businesses more local to them than factory dealers might be.

Service and parts manuals should be included with the machine.

What I usually find is that most shops will run the diagnostics and inform the owner what needs to be done, what parts might be needed and so on and give an estimate of costs. If you chosoe not to have the work done, they'll charge an hour labor for the testing, otherwise the test time is rolled into the repair.

They are if the person either negotiate free manuals in the sale or purchase a service manual or parts manual at time of initial purchase or later.

Someone had to devote a lot of time and effort in assembling a parts manual or a detailed service manual. Are they supposed to do this and then publish the service or parts manual and not be paid?

The Dealer where we purchase the equipment does not publish the manuals. John Deere does for example. The dealer has to purchase from JD to give to you. Is he supposed to do this out of his pocket, or increase the cost of the tractors by what the manual cost?

The only thing in life that is free is Social Disease and COVID-19 and no one wants either.

 

[Oaktree]

I sort of find it hilarious, that many of those who complained about JD and their right to repair policy, did so because they were or are trying to circumnavigate the TIER-4 emissions equipment on the tractor. They have the skills and knowledge to get around the TIER-4 , but JD voids warranty by doing so. Hopefully, Biden's executive order is not misconstrued.

We're talking apples and oranges here. JD claims that it they allow consumers access to fault codes somehow those same customers will hack the code and bypass emissions controls, diddle with engine timing and generally create havoc. I call BS on that.
I'd say 99% of owners/independent shops just want to be able to do routine tasks...read error codes, reset whatever needs to be reset when a component is changed, etc. There should be no need to reset anything if all you do is change a filter, hose or something basic like that. We're not seeing significant numbers of on-road vehicle owners doing that simply by buying an OBD scanner at their local autoparts store.

Service and parts manuals should be included with the machine.

These items should be made available, but I don't see why there should be any obligation on the part of the manufacturer to supply them for free. I bet even the dealerships have to pay for that.
That documentation is expensive to produce, and a lot of customers have no intention of doing other than routine maintenance on their machines. There's no free lunch, the cost of the manuals is just going to be absorbed into the selling price...you pay whether you want/need it or not.

 

[BravoXray]

AND, there is the John Deere point of view,,
I think JD invested a fortune developing the software, and now, JD is trying to figure out a fair way to market that software..

JD is like any other software company,, if JD creates software, JD, or any other software developer should not be required to "give away" access to the software.

AND, they have made an even larger fortune keeping it locked up. Deere won't do anything to make servicing easier unless they are forced to do so.

No one is talking about giving the systems software away, only about allowing shop and owners access to diagnostic software and service manuals to be able to diagnose what the problem is without waiting until a JD dealer can get to it.

 

[5030]

simply by buying an OBD scanner at their local autoparts store.

You don'
t buy the scan tool I have at an auto parts store. AP stores don't sell 1800 buck scan tools.

 

[ning]

Right to repair isn't just about DIY vs go to the dealer - it also affects third party repairs.

I can do a basic diagnosis of my OBD-equipped car at home but as others noted, there are expensive tools that I don't have. However, my excellent repair shop in town does, and they're not affiliated with the practically fraudulent nearby dealer nor the manufacturer, and are capable of any fix needed.

 

[Oaktree]

You don'
t buy the scan tool I have at an auto parts store. AP stores don't sell 1800 buck scan tools.

Agreed, but most people don't need or want pro-grade scan tools, these are something that for the most part only professional mechanics have.

 

[jerrybob]

With all this new technology.......I think it's only a matter of time before we get a country song where a guy's truck or tractor leaves him too.