Right to repair - we WIN!!

ruffdog

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southern wisconsin
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Bobcat Toolcat 5610 G series w/turfs
That sounds like a desirable outcome, and actually could be realistic, except maybe the 8 minutes parts replacement;)
It sounds plausible with simple machines but with large modern complex machines it would not be so easy.
 

CoyPatton

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Poplar Bluff, MO
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Yanmar YM2002D with Koyker 110 FEL
Yes, that would be a "magic box" if that is how it would work. Normally, a service code may tell you that you have low fuel pressure at the injectors and you have to still figure out if it is a plugged line/filter, water in the fuel, stop solenoid, or lift pump. Maybe the code tells you that there is still a safety interlock enabled and you have to figure out which switch it is or if you have a short. It seems like the dealers will be stocking lots of parts for people doing plan B.

Yes. The equipment that provides the more detailed info even for OBD-II vehicles is not a few hundred dollars or less certainly not $20, but $1000’s. And often requires a heavy learning curve.
Yes there are $20 OBD-II readers available. They give you an OBD-II error code stored in the vehicle on board computer. Those sub entry level readers give you absolutely no info on where to go from there. If you are not a very experienced tech, you have hours of education in front of you and unless you already own semi specialized tools, will quickly be spending more of those $20 bills for more tools.
There are more involved readers for more $$$ and still you either need experience or education to filter through provided data.
Then the professional level diagnostic equipment will allow interaction with the on board computer to actually assess components. But again these are not going to be simple pick up and fix solutions.
Oh where it do dimple as to plug in a computer and adapter and get a part number spit out. Someone had bern watching too much sci fi with no reality filters in place.
 

/pine

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The analogy between software and mechanical parts that contain microprocessors etc... is viable to a point...

Take for example an end user product like Photoshop...it easy to find older versions that can be activated without Adobe knowing about it but it must not be allowed to "phone home" which it will try to do every time the program is started...

Like newer versions of proprietary software/hardware...machines will likely have to have access to either towers or satellites in order to function...
 
  
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sunandsand

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Kubota B2601
Here's my experience with the "magic box".

Car is a 2008 Mercedes CLK 350 convertible. Air conditioning isn't working. Owner (me) unhappy about this. Climate control on this car is seriously complicated, lots of options, temp individually adjustable on each side, blower also, vents also, this is kinda nuts. Standard Teutonic over-engineering.

Plug in magic box, set to correct vehicle (standard plug, software internally selectable for about 50 different models).

Hit "go". Box scrolls down and does about a hundred (!) different scans and checks, stops at "climate control".

"Enter for further information", OK, tell me.

"Module 1131 out of range, enter for further information"

Click.

"Humidity 0%, outside air temperature -40F"

In Florida. In the summer. Right. I doubt it.

A few minutes with Google yields the correct MB part number for module 1131 and where it lives (front of the firewall, next to the battery).

List price on the module is over $400. eBay has a guaranteed used one for - ready - $12 delivered! Buy it now. Four days later it is here, three screws and one plug and it is in, A/C now works flawlessly.

The dealer would have charged me an absolute minimum of $150 in diagnostics, plus the module, plus tax, and I'd have had to leave the car with them for a couple of days. If I had been able to get out of there for $750, I would have been happy. My net cost was $12, and I don't count the $50 cost for the box because I can use it again. (They would have washed the car as part of the $750, but man, that's an EXPENSIVE car wash!)


So I know it works.

Minimal learning curve, no special tools needed, quick repair, absurdly low cost - how the heck do you fix ANYTHING on a Mercedes for $12? But I did . . .



While it is entirely correct to say that some repairs are going to cost a lot more and take a bunch of special tools and training, there are also a lot of simple (and some not-so-simple) things that can be done by owners, who can save a LOT of time and money doing it.

What the "magic box" does is talk to the ECU in the vehicle and read stored trouble codes. We can't look at a sensor or a control box or a catalytic converter and tell if it is good or bad, but the computer knows and the box will tell us. OBD II and its various relatives save a huge amount of diagnostic time and keeps mechanics from just throwing (your/our) money at some obscure problem until it is solved.

Lets extend the function of the box to check dealer stock on the part - that isn't much of a leap from what we have now. You've already told the box what model you have, so there's no reason there can't be an electronic parts lookup function. Your phone has a GPS in it, so it can use the Google "Vendors near me" function to find the nearest dealer or dealers.

As to needing connectivity, it could ride on your cell phone connection, so no computer or separate satellite equipment needed.


Older and simpler machines don't (usually) have ECUs, but if your (whatever) does, you'll be very thankful for the code readers.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 

IndyJay

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Apr 23, 2021
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S.E. Indiana
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Kioti DK4510MS w/Loader, Grapple Prev: Massey 1250
Yes, that would be a "magic box" if that is how it would work. Normally, a service code may tell you that you have low fuel pressure at the injectors and you have to still figure out if it is a plugged line/filter, water in the fuel, stop solenoid, or lift pump. Maybe the code tells you that there is still a safety interlock enabled and you have to figure out which switch it is or if you have a short. It seems like the dealers will be stocking lots of parts for people doing plan B.
Looking at two different wiring schematics:
1) Old school tractor where all of the safety switches are wired in series, eventually going to ground; yes you do have to trace each and every one of the switches until you find the one that is causing the issue.
2) New system with ECU, for example my Kioti DK4510, wiring diagram shows that each individual safety switch and all other sensors go back to the ECU on their own data point.

Are you saying that the code reader is not going to be able to pinpoint which one is holding out the 'run-ok' status? Do you know this for sure or are you assuming that the troubleshooting process is the same for finding the cause of a safety lockout in these two hypothetical systems?

I am betting that the code will tell you which switch/sensor is holding up the show. Granted, you do still have to figure out why, but having the code reader allows you to go directly to the device and jiggle, clean, whatever and see if it clears the condition right there on the spot. That is what this whole thread is about. Giving us the ability to perform basic troubleshooting on our own, perhaps reconnecting a loose connection and going on without the expense and inconvenience of taking it to the dealer.
 

k0ua

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Jun 28, 2009
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Branson, Mo.
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Kioti DK35se Hydrostat
Mr truck started to run like a 3 legged horse. In other words, not very well. Slobbering at idle and the power seemed down. I didn't have a scanner but a friend came over with one. Two minutes later he told me spark plug was not working. I went to investigate and the plug wire was not plugged in correctly. It came off too easy with just the friction of the plug wire cover. Fixed that and truck runs great again. What would that have cost at the dealership? I dunno, but I bet it would have been a lot more than the "free" that it cost me.
 

RickB

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Up the road from Dollar General WNC
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Just a Scag
"Plug in magic box, set to correct vehicle (standard plug, software internally selectable for about 50 different models)."

Flaw #1 with extrapolating that automotive solution to off-road; As of this date and for some indeterminate time going forward there is no "standard plug" much less any standardization of software.
 
  
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sunandsand

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Kubota B2601
"no standard plug or standardization of software"

At the present, this appears to be correct. Even if it is never standardized, if I buy a $25,000 tractor, another grand for a proprietary diagnostics box is worth it, it pays for itself the first time I don't have to call for service or drag the tractor back to the dealer on a borrowed trailer.

Diesel trucks have OBD II ports, why can't a diesel tractor? Programming in the ECU can communicate with all kinds of things on the vehicle. Deere's software is proprietary, I understand there are "cracked" versions of of it "out there".


Question for IndyJay - does your Kioti have a diagnostics port on it, and if so, does it look like an automotive OBD II socket? There's really no reason (other than to keep customers out) for using a proprietary connector when the manufacturers can buy standard connectors right off the shelf for pennies.

In fact, that's one of the things the FTC is going to be looking at - what tricks are the vendors using to keep people from fixing their own stuff? Trick fasteners? Glue? Captive software? All about to become no-nos.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida
 

RickB

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It has more than the appearance of being correct, it is correct. There will be more than a quarter century worth of computerized machinery with non standard hardware and software that doesn’t fit the neat box of the OBDII regulatory framework. Consumer level solutions for right to repair for these machines will be cumbersome and expensive.
 

IndyJay

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Kioti DK4510MS w/Loader, Grapple Prev: Massey 1250
Question for IndyJay - does your Kioti have a diagnostics port on it, and if so, does it look like an automotive OBD II socket?
Mike, my DK4510 has what appears to be a standard ODB II socket right above the parking brake lever. I have read posts stating that standard readers cannot communicate with the proprietary interface using available software. My own guess is perhaps Kioti changed the pinouts just enough to prevent compatibility but not cause damage if a non-compatible device is connected. It may also be that the pinout is standard but just requires the proprietary software. Would love to hear from someone who has managed to get into one.
 
 
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