Safety Issues - Stability

[emilioespejo]

Hi there,

I am new to tractors, a total noob. I bought my Kioti CK2510 unit based on online reviews and obviously with very limited knowledge of "hands on" operation. I love the size and power of my tractor, I can park it in the garage when I am away and it does everything I expect it to do from a power/lift perspective, mostly moving dirt and old logs for trail maintenance. My problems come when I am not working on a flat surface. My property is mostly rough terrain, I have 50 acres of woods with trails and I am finding extremely difficult moving around and working with the unit if the terrain has the slightest pitch. I am talking something as small 10-15 degrees. If I am carrying any load, even as close to the surface as physically possible, , my wheels keep lifting off the ground. I get into more severe problems when there is mud ( and In NY there seems to be only two seasons, snow and mud) and one of my front wheels sink, same effect happens. Sometimes I get 12 inch liftoff, Am I being too paranoid? I am on my ATV on 3 wheels many times but it feels balanced and secure, but on the tractor it just feels it is going to roll over and unsafe... Any feedback from more experienced users or suggestion of solutions to improve the situation will be appreciated. What is safe ground grade to work with a tractor of this size?

 

[N2DFire]

Ok just a couple random things off the top of my head

You state

If I am carrying any load, even as close to the surface as physically possible, , my wheels keep lifting off the ground.

I am assuming you mean carrying a load in the Front End Loader (FEL) and not the rear 3pt (so correct me if I am wrong) - but with that in mind...

1) Are your tires loaded with fluid (Beet Juice, Windshield Washer Fluid, etc)
2) Are you carrying anything on the 3pt to act as a counterweight
3) What type of tires do you have(Ag, Industrial, or Turf)

For Q1 & Q2 - I looked on the website and Kioti no longer publishes the information but you should be able to find it in the manual for your Loader - Somewhere it should tell you the required amount of counterweight in order to get the maximum lift capacity of your loader.

For our older CK35 / KL120 - it required 700lbs of 3pt counter weight OVER having filled rear tires.

Q3 - On the older CK series - the Ag tires come on different rims than Turf or Industrial. The Ag rims allow for widening the rear "stance" which adds to cross hill stability. Again I read the literature on the web site and it wasn't clear to me if the new CK10 series was the same nor could I see if the overall width of the (wider) industrial tires were the same as the max width on Ag's - that may be a dealer type question.


And my last suggestion (esp if you're moving earth or timber which can vary greatly in weigh based on density & water content) - maybe you're just biting off more than you can chew.
Like my father still reminds me (almost every time I get on it) - It's not a D9 dozer it's a tractor. lol


Oh - almost forgot - Welcome to TBN.

 

[9973720wb19]

i hate to say this but maybe your tractor is too small? a larger tractor will be more stable - other than that - put wheel weights on

 

[tractorshopper]

I'm with Steve, and in the same order. Fill rear wheels, put a heavy duty box blade on your 3PH (or some other heavy attachment), and if you can adjust the width of rear wheels, do it.

Ballast makes all the difference in the world with feel and actually getting the complete capability out of your loader while lowering your center of gravity. Tractor will feel much less tippy.

I somewhat disagree with 99737 though. A larger tractor will not necessarily be, or better yet, feel, more stable. There are many factors that go into it other than just big vs small. My last tractor was a much larger and heavier tractor ballasted the same way as my current smaller tractor, and I take my smaller tractor on side slopes that I would have never taken my larger tractor on if for no other reason than the feel of being that much more up off the ground. I'm sure I would have rolled it on the stuff I run my small tractor on.

 

[emilioespejo]

Hi Steve, Thanks for the welcoming message!. At the present time I have no weights, stock tractor, air filled Ag tires After typing this message I kept reading online. I saw that people recommend adding fluid to the tires and I also see people making custom weights for the rear 3pt. (regular tires take fluid or you need special tires?) I work in commercial heating and cooling so I have access to hundreds of gallons of discarded propylene glycol...that might be useful ...
I am very cautious when driving this thing and I never overload it, the feeling of insecurity happens even without any weight in the FEL (except for the bucket or the grapple itself) just going on the off road trail with hundreds of uneven points....
I appreciate your suggestions and research. Thank you so much!

 

[emilioespejo]

I'm with Steve, and in the same order. Fill rear wheels, put a heavy duty box blade on your 3PH (or some other heavy attachment), and if you can adjust the width of rear wheels, do it.

Ballast makes all the difference in the world with feel and actually getting the complete capability out of your loader while lowering your center of gravity. Tractor will feel much less tippy.

I somewhat disagree with 99737 though. A larger tractor will not necessarily be, or better yet, feel, more stable. There are many factors that go into it other than just big vs small. My last tractor was a much larger and heavier tractor ballasted the same way as my current smaller tractor, and I take my smaller tractor on side slopes that I would have never taken my larger tractor on if for no other reason than the feel of being that much more up off the ground. I'm sure I would have rolled it on the stuff I run my small tractor on.

Thank you for your suggestions as well David. Truly appreciated! I know I might sound like a dumbass at this point... but I am simply not used to equipment with this weight distribution or knowledgeable of options to improve the situation... Sounds like filling the tires will be step 1. Do they sell kits online? I would assume you need to change the schrader valve to something else? Do the tires then get standing fluid pressure or you need to leave lets say 10% air to set them to pressure?

 

[CobyRupert]

Sounds like filling the tires will be step 1. Do they sell kits online? I would assume you need to change the schrader valve to something else? Do the tires then get standing fluid pressure or you need to leave lets say 10% air to set them to pressure?

There are kits to add fluid.

Yes you leave some air in them.

Remember any weight you add above the tractor's center of gravity, raises the tractor's center of gravity (example: fluid right up to the top of the tire) and will make the tractor less stable on side hills than if the weight wasn't up there. (Although the additional weight gives the tractor more traction, and all the fluid you added before lowered the C.O.G., so you'd just be cancelling out any gains). Most tractors center of gravity height (not considering a FEL) is probably just above the rear axle, or about 2/3 the tire height (rough estimate). And that is were many fill to.
Here's a chart on how many gallons for a given wheel size
View attachment AG Tires Ballast.pdf

 

[N2DFire]

Hi Steve, Thanks for the welcoming message!. At the present time I have no weights, stock tractor, air filled Ag tires After typing this message I kept reading online. I saw that people recommend adding fluid to the tires and I also see people making custom weights for the rear 3pt. (regular tires take fluid or you need special tires?) I work in commercial heating and cooling so I have access to hundreds of gallons of discarded propylene glycol...that might be useful ...
I am very cautious when driving this thing and I never overload it, the feeling of insecurity happens even without any weight in the FEL (except for the bucket or the grapple itself) just going on the off road trail with hundreds of uneven points....
I appreciate your suggestions and research. Thank you so much!

Thank you for your suggestions as well David. Truly appreciated! I know I might sound like a dumbass at this point... but I am simply not used to equipment with this weight distribution or knowledgeable of options to improve the situation... Sounds like filling the tires will be step 1. Do they sell kits online? I would assume you need to change the schrader valve to something else? Do the tires then get standing fluid pressure or you need to leave lets say 10% air to set them to pressure?

I'm going to merge your questions into 1 answer.

Your stock tires will take fluid no problem & the propylene glycol will work great - esp if you have a source for cheap / free.
As for how to fill - there are kits/adapters sold as well as several How To videos on YouTube. Most of the VooDoo magic part is how to actually get the fluid into the tire and I will leave that to you & YouTube to figure out what works best for you.

The basics is to lift the side of the tractor you're working on to take the weight off of the tire, rotate the valve stem to the top, bleed off the air pressure, fill with fluid till it's up to the valve stem (full as you can get it), and then just re-insert the valve stem and top with air to operating pressure.

And while you're at it, there's nothing wrong with filling the front tires too.

Since you said you have Ag tires I would investigate the rims and see if you can widen the stance at all (and unless you have some other type of space restrictions I'd go wide as possible) - I would also do this BEFORE filling them as they will get dangerously heavy & unmanageable afterward.

When we bought our CK we cheated and had the dealer fill & widen before delivery but it's doable with some basic tools & time.

Once you fill the tires you can see if you need additional counterweight & if so (like David said) a Box Blade is the most popular choice because it's heavy, sits close to the tractor for maneuverability, and a lot more useful than a big hunk of concrete.

And for the record you do not sound like a dumbass - we all started out not knowing anything. Better you ask here than get hurt (or worse) learning on your own. :thumbsup:

 

[CobyRupert]

Ballast and widen.

If the stock rims don't let you adjust the width, also consider wheel spacers.

 

[ritcheyvs]

From a safety perspective, it is critical to keep both rear wheels on the ground. The front axle is on a trunion (pivot) so is provides zero roll stability. So if you lift a rear wheel you could start to roll, maybe all the way.

Here are some links on liquid filling kits:
Installing Liquid Ballast in Tires | GEMPLER'S
Amazon.com: Slime 273 Air & Water Adapter Kit: Automotive

You'll have to rig something to deliver the glycol under a few psi pressure. Here's one way:
Tricks to Filling Tractor Tires with Water - YouTube

Some tractors have back wheels that let you widen the distance between the back wheels, If so, do that before adding liquid. Wheels and tires are heavy and much heavier when filled (to the point of being dangerous).

A box blade is a VERY handy attachment (the heavier the better) and it makes a good ballast.

 

[Coyote machine]

Welcome!
10-15% slope is not a small slope. If fact many tractor manuals specify no more that 10% as the MAX slope to be using a tractor on period. And, while on the subject of slopes always keep the tractor in a gear, NEVER in neutral while going up or down any hill/slope. Which way to approach a slope is also debated here on TBN almost constantly. And don't go across a slope of any amount of grade to it, because holes, bumps, rocks etc. can and will change the balance characteristics of your tractor, and once you pass the tipping point there is usually no recovery. And it can/will happen faster than you can blink under the right conditions.

So seat belt on, ROPS fully upright, in a gear, and using steadily applied braking, and 4wd too. Hydrostatic transmissions have wet brakes in the actual transmission and unless you're in 4wd if you lose control of your descent speed you will have NO braking action unless you are in a range, ( L, M, H) or a gear for a manual transmission. Keeping you FEL bucket low whenever moving the tractor is essential too, as well as serious counterweight/ballast on the rear end/3PH area.
If towing, only use the drawbar attached to the bellhousing area of the rear end. Anywhere else is above the COG and can result in a backwards rollover/back.

You're getting 10-12" off the ground with one rear wheel is on your way to rolling it over sideways. It's NOT an ATV, and is way more dangerous than what you're used to with them.

You need to change what you're doing and how you do it immediately, or you'll be in deep ***** or dead sooner than later. Rollover deaths are the leading cause of fatalities on tractors across the board, regardless of tractor size.

So get ballast, and fill your rear tires first before doing any more work. It surprises me that your selling dealer didn't recommend filling the tires to begin with; I know mine did, and I probably knew less about tractors than you did when you got yours.
As far as getting different rims or adding wheel weights Kioti's don't go that route much from what I've seen.
Mostly they either have AG or industrial tires and the wheel spread is about what it is from the factory.
Rear weight, like a BB or backhoe is pretty common, but some build ballast boxes and fill with rocks, concrete, etc.

Take it slow for many hours after you get the tires filled and rear ballast at the 3PH, and use the lowest range or gear possible when doing any slope/grade work. Common sense is helpful too, so think about what you're trying to do and access if it's safe. Carry a cell phone or 2 way radio with you and let people know where you're going to be if any kind of risk might present itself when working alone.

There is a LOT to learn so take it easy and get to know your tractor, and come back here and read everything when you're not on the tractor, and ask lots of questions- that's how I learned most all of what I know about tractors; right here, hour after hour from those more experienced than me. And there are a TON of people with way more than I know about tractors on here everyday.:thumbsup:

 

[marchanna]

Interesting thread. It got me wondering, what is the maximum slope I can safely drive across before tipping over? With my flail mower and the bucket low it seems pretty stable on a 15-degree slope.

 

[Coyote machine]

Interesting thread. It got me wondering, what is the maximum slope I can safely drive across before tipping over? With my flail mower and the bucket low it seems pretty stable on a 15-degree slope.

Is that 15 Metric degrees?

 

[Teachu2]

1) The only sure way to establish a limit is to exceed it. Make sure to wear your seatbelt.....

2) My Kioti dealer loaded all four tires when they prepped mine, based on my home's terrain. Didn't even ask, just did it. Good man!

3) 4wd (front assist, whatever they call it) is your friend on downhills. The brakes are on the rears, the weight is on the fronts, and sliding downhill is not fun.

4) If in doubt, stop for a moment and see if you can figure out a better way to approach the situation. I was on a steep slope on my property and got too close to a hole I was filling - the edge gave way and dropped my right front wheel in until the axle was in the dirt. I thought it was going over, but it quit sinking. I bailed off and looked the situation over, realized I was not going to get it out the way it went in, and ended up driving it down into the hole and out the downhill side. Lucky, and a learning experience.

5) Wear your seatbelt.

6) If in doubt, DON'T.

 

[dieselcrawler]

Interesting thread. It got me wondering, what is the maximum slope I can safely drive across before tipping over? With my flail mower and the bucket low it seems pretty stable on a 15-degree slope.

Such a subjective question/answer. So many factors come into play. I have held a side slope (angle finder verified) of 30°, but let me tell you, it's pucker city. I have made my tractor more slope stable, and could not do that in Stock form.

No one can give you an answer, that you can rely on. Speed, terrain, tractor COG, operator skill and 'feel' are major factors.

I have tested my set up in semi-safe conditions, like a ditch, with the tractor on one side, so if it did roll, it isn't going far, not a 'to the bottom of the holler barrel roll' situation like I find myself in alot of times. Getting comfortable in that situation can help you learn your and your equipments limits.

 

[marchanna]

I guess I'll just have to get a feel for it. I wasn't sure if anyone had any info on theoretical maximums for a given tractor.

 

[coldsteelva]

I'm pretty sure the manual will state not to exceed 15-degrees on a side slope. That doesn't mean that it won't hold, but the manufacturer isn't making any promises regarding stability after 15 degrees. Even the smallest lawn tractor has the 15 degree notice.

 

[CobyRupert]

Such a subjective question/answer. So many factors come into play. I have held a side slope (angle finder verified) of 30°, but let me tell you, it's pucker city. I have made my tractor more slope stable, and could not do that in Stock form.

No one can give you an answer, that you can rely on. Speed, terrain, tractor COG, operator skill and 'feel' are major factors.

I agree with what you say.....except for the "feel" part. I hear that very often on TBN when it comes to running equipment on side hills. Many people talk about the "feel factor" or the "pucker factor". - "Take it slow and see how it feels." Sorry (I'm not picking on you), but that's is my pet peeve, "Science (physics) don't give crap about your feelings".

Many people's "feelings" will have them quit way before the tractor is in danger of rolling over. Most people wouldn't attempt your 30 degree test, even with a capable tractor. And because a lot of tractors do roll over we also know that those drivers feelings were also misplaced.

Like Teach said: "1) The only sure way to establish a limit is to exceed it. Make sure to wear your seatbelt..... "

 

[RedNeckGeek]

As new tractor owners (and we all were at the beginning) nobody here knew what they didn't know. Ignorance is NOT bliss, in fact it can kill you. Lots of good advice in this thread, but there are several threads here on TBN that talk about tractor stability and rolling. I suggest you take some time to search them out and read them so that you understand just what the hazards are and how to mitigate them.

For example, no one here has mentioned that the higher the bucket is, the sooner the tractor will tip on a side hill. Or that dropping the bucket can stop a roll if there's enough weight in it. Dropping the bucket can also stop a downhill runaway, so keeping one hand on the bucket lever is a good habit to get into. Work carefully and slowly to give yourself time to sense the tractor going off balance and a wheel lifting. And you might consider installing a tilt meter so you have a sense of how close you're coming to the limits of stability. IMHO, dropping a wheel into a hole on the low side or running over a rock or root on the high side are the quickest ways to get yourself in trouble on a side hill, and I can't emphasize enough that going slowly gives you the best chance to catch something bad before you get into trouble. The ground is steep here, and I spend a lot of time going straight up and down the grade, or slightly angling and making big up/down traverses to move over just a few feet. Yeah, it takes longer that way, but it takes a lot more time to pick up a turned over tractor or recover from an injury.

 

[rd_macgregor]

All good advice, though I'd put "widen stance" first (as some did).
Beyond stabilizing, one safety action I've seen violated time and again is folding down the ROPS and leaving folded. Many folks park their tractor in a garage with a standard overhead door. There are few tractors that will go through a standard OH door with the ROPS up, so they get folded down. Laziness sets in and the ROPS ends up staying down all the time.
Don't do this; make it a habit to have the ROPS up and locked (pinned) and your seat belt fastened. Too many older tractors killed their owners because they lacked safety features; it is especially sad to see owners of more modern tractors die because they failed to use (or defeated!) the safety features innate to their tractor.